[DF(RPG?)]Removing a backpack at combat start, and breaking delicate items

NorphTehDwarf · 02-20-2021, 01:16 PM

Let's say the party meets up with some enemies while they're in transit, with all their travel gear still on their backs. It's a failed ambush or two parties just blundering into each other; they have a couple seconds (possibly while under fire, possibly not) to get ready before the main clash or arms.

How long should it take, in that situation, to remove a backpack? Quick-release backpacks take a free action to slam a spring-loaded brooch or something, but at the risk of breaking delicate stuff.

If you're using treasure tables then you can do the same thing with a carrying yoke (DF8 p.22), although i'm inclined to give it an equal chance for delicate stuff to break if dropped as a free action, and maybe also to require sacks to tie to it or something to actually hold stuff, since a yoke's just a wooden thing.

But that still leaves regular backpacks and the old classic murderhobo bindle combo (IE: sack+pole).

I'm inclined to tread the sack+pole combo as a free action with that same breakage risk, unless of the sack's tied to a long weapon the player wants to use in the fight, in which case untying the sack takes 3 seconds, reducible to 1 with a DX-2 or Knot-Tying+2 check.

Backpacks are another thing entirely.
I feel like the small backpack should take three seconds to shuck off, and the large backpack and backboards (DF2, p22 again) should take four.

I feel like this is a good compromise; it lets players who invest in quick-release carrier gear get benefits for it while not leaving everyone else trapped with high encumbrance for entire fights.

Which brings me to a second point I didn't realize I was about to make:
Would it be reasonable to let players with the quick release backpack and other solutions take a ready maneuver to set their packs on the ground without breaking them?
And by the same logic could I let players with regular backpacks reduce the time it takes to remove them by a second by letting them drop to the ground and risk breaking a potion vial or whatever? Maybe backboards should also have a 2 in 6 risk of scattering stuff everywhere in addition to breaking something delicate.

Thoughts?

I'm running a campaign primarily using the larger DF set and not the RPG. Not sure whether to post this in the DFRPG zone or here; been a while since I posted here so please forgive me/move the thread if it's in the wrong forum.

Pursuivant · 02-21-2021, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorphTehDwarf

How long should it take, in that situation, to remove a backpack? Quick-release backpacks take a free action to slam a spring-loaded brooch or something, but at the risk of breaking delicate stuff.

Your proposed fixes seem entirely reasonable.

Turning a Free Action into a Ready maneuver to somehow put the pack on the ground gently is a good idea.

Otherwise, loose items in a dropped backpack suffer the equivalent of a 1 yard fall if dropped by a human-sized character, 2 yards for Size 1. Items dropped by SM -1 or smaller creatures aren't likely to fall far enough to shatter - unless they're incredibly fragile or volatile.

Shoulder-carried items fall the equivalent of 2 yards for Size 0 creatures, 3 yards for SM 1, or 1 yard to Size -1 to -3.

Breakage of items in dropped packs is entirely dependent on GM's judgment and mercy. Since a backpack typically falls outward from the wearer's back, stuff on the front of the pack (facing away from the user when it's worn) might get crushed and anything in the pack will get tipped on its side (possibly leaking or spilling). Breakage isn't so much of an issue as loads shifting or items inside the pack leaking.

Experienced delvers, hikers, and soldiers know how to stow their gear properly, however. Characters should get a roll vs. IQ or an IQ-based roll against any relevant skill (e.g., Freight Handling, Hiking, Housekeeping, Packing, or Soldier) to stow carried items properly.

Pursuivant · 02-21-2021, 03:56 AM

It also occurs to me that alchemists, collectors of monster parts, and potion slingers might want special backpacks designed to protect fragile items while also allowing quick access.

Realistically, there were pack frames for carrying things like radios or carrier pigeons used during WW1 and WW2. 17th to 19th century peddlers sometimes carried hard-sided sample cases or pack frames fitted with interior boxes or drawers. Dungeon Fantasy versions might look like these items:

Potioneer's Backpack
A quick release pack frame with hard sides and padded interior compartments for safely carrying potion bottles or similar items without breakage or spillage. Holds 12 standard potion bottles, each in its own compartment. Dropping it is a free action but as long as items inside are properly stowed they don't suffer damage.

Compartments provide each potion with DR 2 against most forms of damage, DR 6 against corrosive damage, giving the wearer time to safely remove the pack if an accident occurs. The wearer also benefits from this DR against attacks to the Torso from behind.

Padded thick leather flaps, each closed with a hook, cover each compartment allowing quick access. Braille-type markings on each flap and at the front of each compartment allow the user to work by touch allowing them to grab the right potion even in the dark.

Someone facing the pack can ready a potion in just 2 turns - 1 turn to open a flap, another to grab the potion. The wearer can't access potions without removing the pack, however.

If not used to carry potions the pack holds up to 40 lbs. of gear, but can't hold any object larger than Size -6. $350, 10 lbs.

Potion Dispenser
An improved version of the item above.

A hard-sided frame backpack with a spring-loaded "daisy-wheel" potion (or Molotov cocktail, or acid vial) dispenser inside. Pressing a button on the lower right hand corner of the dispenser feeds the next potion into release position. Pressing the button again opens the release hatch allowing the user to grab the bottle. The action works fast enough that the whole process takes just 1 second. Failsafes ensure that the dispenser door doesn't open accidentally.

The device holds 8 standard-sized, sealed pint bottles. The remaining space is taken up by the dispenser mechanism. To reload the item, the user must open a door on the back of the frame, reload the dispenser, and wind the clock spring. This takes at least 30 seconds (1 second to open or close the door, 2 seconds to load each bottle, 12 seconds to wind the clockwork). $400, 10 lbs.

(A hypothetical, but realistic, high-tech dispenser pack would use liquids packaged in aluminum cans and would be a bit deeper and heavier to accommodate them. Using a gravity-fed "runway" dispense system it could hold 36 or more cans, essentially acting as a glorified portable vending machine.)

Polkageist · 02-21-2021, 11:02 AM

I think a lot of it is a bit dependent on the situation and how mean of a GM you want to be. As with most things, situational meanness for dramatic tension is fantastic. I would absolutely use the dropping/breaking rolls if they're carrying something that's really important, say that magical potion retrieved from an ancient shrine that needs to be brought back to base.

For the everyday healing potion though, meh.

It's really incredible how little of a fall it takes to break something if the setup is just wrong, and how far something can fall if the setup is just right. So a pack is something that really does kind of fall in the standard operating procedures where it's packed right so that breakable things are in the right spot so they're buffered by cloth, soft objects, and such. That's just part of being an adventurer, you know how to pack right. Especially if it's all the time, you don't want to be doing that roll constantly. For a game where one or more PCs are new to the whole packing around adventure gear, a few of those rolls would set the tone of their neophyte status. Once they've cleared an adventure or two, and they're not making those rolls anymore it gives a sense of progression that they've learned past the point of making an obvious beginner mistake.

Specialized backpacks pretty much cover atypical situations and plot insulation, which is totally a worthwhile thing, plus the added benefit of easy access and good organization.

02-20-2021, 01:16 PM	#1
NorphTehDwarf Join Date: Sep 2008	[DF(RPG?)]Removing a backpack at combat start, and breaking delicate items Let's say the party meets up with some enemies while they're in transit, with all their travel gear still on their backs. It's a failed ambush or two parties just blundering into each other; they have a couple seconds (possibly while under fire, possibly not) to get ready before the main clash or arms. How long should it take, in that situation, to remove a backpack? Quick-release backpacks take a free action to slam a spring-loaded brooch or something, but at the risk of breaking delicate stuff. If you're using treasure tables then you can do the same thing with a carrying yoke (DF8 p.22), although i'm inclined to give it an equal chance for delicate stuff to break if dropped as a free action, and maybe also to require sacks to tie to it or something to actually hold stuff, since a yoke's just a wooden thing. But that still leaves regular backpacks and the old classic murderhobo bindle combo (IE: sack+pole). I'm inclined to tread the sack+pole combo as a free action with that same breakage risk, unless of the sack's tied to a long weapon the player wants to use in the fight, in which case untying the sack takes 3 seconds, reducible to 1 with a DX-2 or Knot-Tying+2 check. Backpacks are another thing entirely. I feel like the small backpack should take three seconds to shuck off, and the large backpack and backboards (DF2, p22 again) should take four. I feel like this is a good compromise; it lets players who invest in quick-release carrier gear get benefits for it while not leaving everyone else trapped with high encumbrance for entire fights. Which brings me to a second point I didn't realize I was about to make: Would it be reasonable to let players with the quick release backpack and other solutions take a ready maneuver to set their packs on the ground without breaking them? And by the same logic could I let players with regular backpacks reduce the time it takes to remove them by a second by letting them drop to the ground and risk breaking a potion vial or whatever? Maybe backboards should also have a 2 in 6 risk of scattering stuff everywhere in addition to breaking something delicate. Thoughts? I'm running a campaign primarily using the larger DF set and not the RPG. Not sure whether to post this in the DFRPG zone or here; been a while since I posted here so please forgive me/move the thread if it's in the wrong forum.

02-21-2021, 03:56 AM	#3
Pursuivant Join Date: Apr 2005	Re: [DF(RPG?)]Removing a backpack at combat start, and breaking delicate items It also occurs to me that alchemists, collectors of monster parts, and potion slingers might want special backpacks designed to protect fragile items while also allowing quick access. Realistically, there were pack frames for carrying things like radios or carrier pigeons used during WW1 and WW2. 17th to 19th century peddlers sometimes carried hard-sided sample cases or pack frames fitted with interior boxes or drawers. Dungeon Fantasy versions might look like these items: Potioneer's Backpack A quick release pack frame with hard sides and padded interior compartments for safely carrying potion bottles or similar items without breakage or spillage. Holds 12 standard potion bottles, each in its own compartment. Dropping it is a free action but as long as items inside are properly stowed they don't suffer damage. Compartments provide each potion with DR 2 against most forms of damage, DR 6 against corrosive damage, giving the wearer time to safely remove the pack if an accident occurs. The wearer also benefits from this DR against attacks to the Torso from behind. Padded thick leather flaps, each closed with a hook, cover each compartment allowing quick access. Braille-type markings on each flap and at the front of each compartment allow the user to work by touch allowing them to grab the right potion even in the dark. Someone facing the pack can ready a potion in just 2 turns - 1 turn to open a flap, another to grab the potion. The wearer can't access potions without removing the pack, however. If not used to carry potions the pack holds up to 40 lbs. of gear, but can't hold any object larger than Size -6. $350, 10 lbs. Potion Dispenser An improved version of the item above. A hard-sided frame backpack with a spring-loaded "daisy-wheel" potion (or Molotov cocktail, or acid vial) dispenser inside. Pressing a button on the lower right hand corner of the dispenser feeds the next potion into release position. Pressing the button again opens the release hatch allowing the user to grab the bottle. The action works fast enough that the whole process takes just 1 second. Failsafes ensure that the dispenser door doesn't open accidentally. The device holds 8 standard-sized, sealed pint bottles. The remaining space is taken up by the dispenser mechanism. To reload the item, the user must open a door on the back of the frame, reload the dispenser, and wind the clock spring. This takes at least 30 seconds (1 second to open or close the door, 2 seconds to load each bottle, 12 seconds to wind the clockwork). $400, 10 lbs. (A hypothetical, but realistic, high-tech dispenser pack would use liquids packaged in aluminum cans and would be a bit deeper and heavier to accommodate them. Using a gravity-fed "runway" dispense system it could hold 36 or more cans, essentially acting as a glorified portable vending machine.) Last edited by Pursuivant; 02-21-2021 at 04:00 AM.

02-21-2021, 11:02 AM	#4
Polkageist Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: [DF(RPG?)]Removing a backpack at combat start, and breaking delicate items I think a lot of it is a bit dependent on the situation and how mean of a GM you want to be. As with most things, situational meanness for dramatic tension is fantastic. I would absolutely use the dropping/breaking rolls if they're carrying something that's really important, say that magical potion retrieved from an ancient shrine that needs to be brought back to base. For the everyday healing potion though, meh. It's really incredible how little of a fall it takes to break something if the setup is just wrong, and how far something can fall if the setup is just right. So a pack is something that really does kind of fall in the standard operating procedures where it's packed right so that breakable things are in the right spot so they're buffered by cloth, soft objects, and such. That's just part of being an adventurer, you know how to pack right. Especially if it's all the time, you don't want to be doing that roll constantly. For a game where one or more PCs are new to the whole packing around adventure gear, a few of those rolls would set the tone of their neophyte status. Once they've cleared an adventure or two, and they're not making those rolls anymore it gives a sense of progression that they've learned past the point of making an obvious beginner mistake. Specialized backpacks pretty much cover atypical situations and plot insulation, which is totally a worthwhile thing, plus the added benefit of easy access and good organization.