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Old 02-20-2021, 08:10 AM   #11
maximara
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Judging by Japanese dungeon fantasy fiction their games have an interesting setup. Dungeon delvers belong to an "Adventurers Guild" that acts as an employment bureau/licensing authority. The PCs go into the Guild and select from the jobs posted on the bulletin board that are suitable for their "level", for example if it's a C class job, you need at least one C class adventurer. The levels range from E class to A class with the adventurers suited for a job like "Ending the demon invasion by killing all the top demon generals and the Demon King herself" being off the scale at "S" class. Naturally recent registrants even of a very high ability must first prove themselves by doing some low ranked jobs.
Sounds like a more serious version of The Guild of Dungeoneering

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A similar classification is seen in Japanese superhero fiction where the superhero organization will deploy heroes of a suitable level of capability to avoid 250 point characters getting tossed into 1000 point situations. I would guess that if applied to GURPS Supers, 1000 to 2000 point heroes would generally be classed as "A", 750 to 1000 pointers would be "B", 500 to 750 would be "C", and 250 to 500 points would be "D". E would be trainees

I don't actually have more than a couple of GURP Dungeon Fantasy books so I couldn't say what the scale would be there, but E should be untested rookies who don't have spellcasting ability and A should be the top rank you can achieve without being some kind of godslayer .
Very setting dependent. For example as far as I know none of the characters in Project A-ko have classifications despite their superpowers (and large amounts of property damage).

More over if you count Pokemon as "supers" you have 10 years old running around with a "team" of up to 6 supers at their beck and call. If you actually read them, some of their entries they read like something out of the SCP Foundation wiki.
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

I haven't read the source material (so maybe my answer is there), but how are NPCs going to assign the PCs a rank? It's not like the PCs are wearing T shirts with their point total stamped on the front.
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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I haven't read the source material (so maybe my answer is there), but how are NPCs going to assign the PCs a rank? It's not like the PCs are wearing T shirts with their point total stamped on the front.
These sorts of settings follow video game logic, just replacing levels with ranks. Sometimes they try to paper over it with tests (Japanese university style) and whatnot, but the "trapped in a video game" ones are the ones being most honest about it. In other words they can see your (and the monsters) character sheets.
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:57 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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I haven't read the source material (so maybe my answer is there), but how are NPCs going to assign the PCs a rank? It's not like the PCs are wearing T shirts with their point total stamped on the front.
The actual point of the animes i have seen these sort of classification systems used in is that the ratings are always wrong.

One Punch Man and it's lead character, Saitama has been mentioned repeatedly and there the ratings are assigned by clueless bureaucrats going on the basis of how cool someone/thing looks to them. They hand out an "Official nickname" of "Caped Baldy" to Saitama because his looks and much of his behavior are subversive to the cliches the bureaucrats are mistaking for Reality (and which we, the fans are supposed to mock them for).

Some times it may be just a trope but every time Naruto gets sent on a D-ranked mission there ends up being a rogue jonin (master ninja) involved. Naruto never did pass any of the promotion exams so he was technicallya genin (approetice ninja) untilt hey gave up and put him in charge.

So I would not be sure how to respond to a dungeon system of classifications and opponent ratings. Is my character not supposed to know that these things are always wrong?
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Old 02-20-2021, 09:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The actual point of the animes i have seen these sort of classification systems used in is that the ratings are always wrong.

One Punch Man and it's lead character, Saitama has been mentioned repeatedly and there the ratings are assigned by clueless bureaucrats going on the basis of how cool someone/thing looks to them. They hand out an "Official nickname" of "Caped Baldy" to Saitama because his looks and much of his behavior are subversive to the cliches the bureaucrats are mistaking for Reality (and which we, the fans are supposed to mock them for).

Some times it may be just a trope but every time Naruto gets sent on a D-ranked mission there ends up being a rogue jonin (master ninja) involved. Naruto never did pass any of the promotion exams so he was technicallya genin (approetice ninja) untilt hey gave up and put him in charge.

So I would not be sure how to respond to a dungeon system of classifications and opponent ratings. Is my character not supposed to know that these things are always wrong?
Good point. IMHO Reputation and a "guild rank" bases on past performance would be more meaningful. A 100 pt character who manages through dumb luck (which people don't know about) can have a higher rank then a 250 character that actually knows what they are doing.

Perfect example of this is Myth Adventures with Skeeve and Aahz. Skeeve has this reputation of being a fearsome powerful wizard despite only being an effective beginner with perhaps 10 spells. On the other hand Aahz has only the reputation of his race as he got depowered but he knows more magic than Skeeve.
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Old 02-20-2021, 10:11 AM   #16
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I've seen a few of those animes, I think Goblin Slayer is another one besides OPM that's got that trope of a guild and ranks amongst the adventurers. I don't think it's at all unique to anime, but what I've seen plays it very straight, and does well by it.

It's a really good world structure premise, and I think there's two good ways to run a plot in that paradigm.
One is to play it straight and have the characters be the up-and-comers in the guild. They really start out scrub-tier, rank up and become more powerful, before finally reaching the top tier and saving the world. The opposing force is the world around them, and the character struggle to improve fast enough to overcome the oncoming storm.

Another is to play the ranks as arbitrary and/or inaccurate (OPM!), and the PCs are fighting a system that does not recognize their abilities appropriately. The drama comes from the character interactions, and the court intrigue of established guild members conflicting with the newcomers all while addressing external threats of varying challenge. Here the external threats, big or small, can and should be a catalyst for a more personal drama.

There are probably other ways to run it, but those two came immediately to mind. It would work for supers, fantasy adventurers, or sci-fi adventures. Overall I don't think the rankings don't need to map directly to character point level because they're based on things like fitting in, guild politics, structured tests, feats, etc. As part of setting up the world, it's probably worthwhile to sketch out what each rank is, E through S you've mentioned, and outline what each level requires. Unless you're running a game that's a specific existing property (OPM, Goblin Slayer) then the ranking system is YOURS and is what drives your world's heroes. I think one thing to keep in mind is that the ranking system doesn't exist in a vacuum, someone's keeping track and someone cares. And those that care are going to do something, either positive or negative, that affects the players.

To contribute one, if I were doing this with the DF setting with the first premise of climbing the ladder.

E - Local militia, bargain henchmen @ ~62pts, trained enough to know the rules
D - Henchmen and hirelings, @ ~125pt level. Competent. (Good starting point for a ladder climb w/ lots of CP awards)
C - Standard DF character starting point.
B - A handful of victories under their belt, maybe enough CP to apply a lens. Bread and butter adventurer level, most stop here. Entry requires a significant victory.
A - Easily above 300cp, possess a handful of moderate-to-powerful items, and commensurate wealth. A couple dozen sessions in at this point, at least. Entry requires a victory and a meaningful contribution to the communal resources of the guild above and beyond the usual dues.
S - No specific numerical reqs. Entry requires quests, victories, good standing, shadowing an existing S-tier group, etc. Almost a political appointment. Deals w/ existential threats.
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Old 02-20-2021, 11:50 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

I believe that a ranking could depend more on the rank of monster that you could defeat in battle than point values. For example, you could rank monsters by the number of average soldiers it could defeat in battle.

E: 10 are required to defeat an average soldier
D: 1 is required to defeat the average soldier
C: 1 could defeat a squad of 10 average soldiers
B: 1 could defeat a company of 100 average soldiers
A: 1 could defeat a regiment of 1,000 average soldiers
S: 1 could defeat a division of 10,000 average soldiers
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:17 PM   #18
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Sounds like a more serious version of The Guild of Dungeoneering



Very setting dependent. For example as far as I know none of the characters in Project A-ko have classifications despite their superpowers (and large amounts of property damage).
Project A-Ko was from 35 years back long before gamelit was a genre in Japan. And A-Ko and B-Ko were the only supers in Japan anyway so they hardly needed ranking. But yes, it's obviously setting dependent. There are still dungeoneering and superhero manga and novels that don't use such a system and the system varies in details when used. Still I've seen dozens of examples of it

Last edited by David Johnston2; 02-20-2021 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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"S"-rank adventurers in Japanese RPG-based fiction are effectively supers, able to withstand un-physical amounts of Knockback (the "one-handed dragon stop") and damage even without direct benefit of magic items or spells.
To be fair, monsters sending characters flying without causing much trauma is a fairly common cinematic trope, and doesn't necessarily indicate superhuman durability. And in some settings the general power level is low enough that S-rankers are more akin to The Watchmen (minus Dr Manhattan) than The Avengers, being only a bit beyond human. But in general, yes, S-Rank are usually on the level of Supers - which is why they are often special cases.

As Ulzgoroth noted, however, there are cases where even lower ranking adventurers are clearly superhuman - in Solo Leveling (which is Korean, rather than Japanese, but follows similar ideas), even the lowliest Hunters are superhuman. The main character is known (in the beginning) as "the weakest one," being quite possibly the weakest Hunter in all of Korea (and possibly beyond), but notes his strength and durability are well in excess of what humans can achieve.

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Note that some of these stories use "metal" grades instead or alongside: iron-copper-silver-gold-platinum (corresponding to E-A ranks) is a common progression, often literally in the form of a guild-issued dog tag in the appropriate material.
Personally, I feel this makes more sense than letters or numbers.

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Originally Posted by Vikingv View Post
I haven't read the source material (so maybe my answer is there), but how are NPCs going to assign the PCs a rank? It's not like the PCs are wearing T shirts with their point total stamped on the front.
In some cases, there's a method to directly determine - quantitatively or qualitatively - the character's overall "power level." Failing that, if it's possible for someone to skip ranks upon joining, there's usually some other sort of aptitude test - such as a sparring match with an established (possibly-retired) adventurer, or completion of a quest under supervision by the same; in cases where you have to start from the bottom, just signing up (and maybe passing something akin to a background check - "Well, you don't scan as Evil, so welcome to the guild") is enough to get to the lowest rank.

Once you're in the guild, ranking up is typically accomplished by demonstrating competence via completing quests. Once you've completed enough, there's typically some sort of review process (to prevent someone from cheating their way through the ranks, as well as to avoid promoting people who don't properly follow guild rules/protocol), or possibly an aptitude test like the above, after which you're higher rank and thus allowed to take on more difficult - but higher-paying - quests (and possibly gain further benefits). Characters can often skip some of the above due to special circumstances - if a Rank E adventurer single-handedly takes down a Rank B monster that was attacking the town, he'll probably end up promoted to Rank B in short order (as he's just demonstrated he functions on that level).

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The actual point of the animes i have seen these sort of classification systems used in is that the ratings are always wrong.
All models are wrong, but some are useful. In most settings, even when the ranking system is flawed, the characters who are improperly ranked are outliers, not anywhere near the majority. The rankings may seem terribly flawed in these cases, simply because the story focuses on the outliers - but even in One Punch Man, you can typically see a clear progression in power from the C-rankers to the S-rankers (again, so long as you avoid the outliers, like Saitama and Fubuki being ranked too low and King being ranked too high).

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
One is to play it straight and have the characters be the up-and-comers in the guild. They really start out scrub-tier, rank up and become more powerful, before finally reaching the top tier and saving the world. The opposing force is the world around them, and the character struggle to improve fast enough to overcome the oncoming storm.
Of course, considering DF is often more about killing monsters and taking their stuff than grand overarching plots with world-altering ramifications, you can also just simply play it straight - the characters join (or are already established) and slowly work their way up the ranks so as to be able to take on harder - but more rewarding - quests. The GM can certainly start having higher stakes involved as rank goes up, of course. For example, Rank E quests may have no serious consequences for failure (the requester just gets their echo grass or whatever elsewhere - or from the Rank E party that managed it), Rank D quests may result in a few people getting eaten, Rank C may result in a village being overrun, Rank B may result in a city falling, Rank A may involve a large region being taken over by monsters, and Rank S may involve the destruction of several nations.
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Old 02-20-2021, 01:52 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Japanese Classification System

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Originally Posted by thrash View Post
Note that some of these stories use "metal" grades instead or alongside: iron-copper-silver-gold-platinum (corresponding to E-A ranks) is a common progression, often literally in the form of a guild-issued dog tag in the appropriate material.
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Personally, I feel this makes more sense than letters or numbers.
For reasons, I would use the seven classical metals: lead, tin, iron, mercury, copper, silver, and gold. Possibly reserving mercury for special cases that defy linear classification.
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