Fair limitation value for Mind Control (No concentration)?

[awesomenessofme1]

Simple question. What would be a reasonable price for a limitation on Mind Control that lets you establish control normally, and get the usual margin-based period of control, but doesn't let you maintain control indefinitely by concentrating? I honestly think it might not be more than -5% or -10%, but I could see it being worth quite a bit more, so I thought I'd ask. (And, of course, if this happens to have already been statted out in a book I haven't seen, that would be great as well.)

[Not another shrubbery]

That's a good one. It sure *seems* like a limiter that has already been thought of, but I can't find a reference for it. Just eyeballing it, I think your suggestion of -10% seems reasonable, making it a minor limitation.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Mind Control that lets you establish control normally, and get the usual margin-based period of control, but doesn't let you maintain control indefinitely by concentrating

My first thought when looking at B68 is that the use of Concentrate maneuvers for this advantage seems to have two components...

a) "Initiate Mind Control"
b) "Maintain Mind Control"

The 2nd needs to be uninterrupted to maintain a "control persists" state, otherwise it shifts to a "control lingers" state and at that point I think to revert your target from "lingers" back to "persists" probably requires and entirely new Quick Contest?

The limitation "Takes Extra Time" doubles "one concentrate to use" to "two concentrates to use". So I wonder: if you take that -10% limitation, does it double (a) or (b) or BOTH?

Independent (P61) does note "can’t maintain it indefinitely by concentrating" so that's one way to get a "margin-only" effect for +70%.

If you're looking for that but want the traditional "control ends when user's incapacitated" effect that Independent removes, "requires concentrate -10%" is one way...

But if you don't want to have to make concentrates each second to maintain the ability (up to MoV minutes) the closest I can think of is using "While Conscious -5%" from PU8.

Mind Control SORT OF has that baked in, so part of the +70% of Independent seems like removing it... SORTA

Not entirely though: "while conscious" guarantees your ability ends when you lose consciousness, but the way basic Mind Control works isn't that extreme: stun/knockout incapacitation only initiates a new Quick Contest to try and get free.

I kinda wonder how that works though: since this is IQ v Will possibly Shock on user is going to make it easier for your target to win... but "Stun" doesn't actually penalize IQ...

If you're in a coma (or dead) you'd think not much of your IQ would be brought to bear for such a contest though. If you effectively have IQ 0 then even the best roll (a 3) is MoF 3, so would that mean their Will roll would just have to fail by 3 or less, or any successs?

You're still getting other two benefits of independent for that net +65%:

1) crit fails on subsequent rolls don't free established targets
2) no cumulative -1 on subsequent rolls

However part of that remaining +65% is also 2 limitations built into Independent modifier which don't apply to baseline mind control:

1) can't use the +2/+4 for minute/hour prep
2) can't lengthen your MoV control with concentration

So without knowing those (and 2 is what you're aiming for) we don't know what 4 aspects add up to +65.

How I+70 works for MC seems different from P108 notes... that's meant to replace "requires concentration" (which only applies to "persists" effect, not "lingers" effect)

There is not actually a "usual duration" since it's unfixed: it's "however long I did consecutive concentrates, plus MoV minutes".

"Extended Duration" only modifies the MoV minutes it seems, so maybe that's why it's the "true duration" of the ability, even though concentration-requirement actually is not a baseline aspect of it.

It seems like maybe you should get to take the "Requires Concentrate" limitation to save -10% on Mind Control prior to taking Independent +70% (for a net +60%) to actually make "concentration throughout" a basic requirement for Independent to remove, because in the basic form it only seems to actually apply to the "persist" prior to "linger" duration portion.

[transmetahuman]

How exactly do you want your limitation be different from the Independent special enhancement on Powers p. 61?

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

How exactly do you want your limitation be different from the Independent special enhancement on Powers p. 61?

The fact that it doesn't have any of the positives associated with it? And probably doesn't have the other negative associated with it? I would think that would be pretty clear.

[Daigoro]

You'd probably want to call it "No maintenance allowed" or some such.
"No concentration" sounds like it's an enhancement that works without the user continually concentrating.

[Anaraxes]

50 points for a level of Compartmentalized Mind to run the controlled body instead of your own. Limit it to "Mind Control only" if you like, and add a Maximum Duration.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

50 points for a level of Compartmentalized Mind to run the controlled body instead of your own. Limit it to "Mind Control only" if you like, and add a Maximum Duration.

That... has absolutely nothing to do with what I want. No offense, but did you even read the thread?

[Anaraxes]

Apparently not carefully enough. My apologies.

[malloyd]

As a pure logic build, I suppose you could add +15% to buy off Requires Concentrate, allowing you to maintain control forever without needing to do anything, and then add Maximum Duration -25% for up to 30 minutes, since you can succeed by more than 10 to get more than 10 minutes duration and 30 minutes is the available next level. Personally I wouldn't allow that first step on its own, but the *combined* cost seems fair at -10%, which is probably what I'd price it at by feel.