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Old 12-06-2017, 08:08 AM   #1
Humabout
 
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Default Modeling Social Nuances

At certain times in history, landed nobility existed along side peasantry such that the lowest nobles had a similar status to the highest peasants (your merchant princes and such). Now, i'm talking about Status, not Rank, so Courtesy Rank isn't available to help out here.

My question is how would you model a guild master or merchant prince type's social standing as opposed to a low level noble, both of whom have, say, Status 3 in such a way that they play differently in social settings. Also, I am imagining a good bit of disdain toward the merchant prince from the noble, but I don't know that this is a quirk or Intolerance, so much as it is an effect of having hereditary title vs. being a social climber.

I'd love to get some insight into this sort of nuance from those who actually make use of this sort of thing in their games. I'd be particularly appreciative of actual gameplay stories. Thanks in advance!
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

Perhaps you want more nuance than this, but maybe having different "Statuses" with some sort of limitations on it?

So, "Status (Merchant Class only) 1; Status (Nobility only) 3"?

Social climber could have a social stigma ("Newly rich"), and personal inter-relations could also be as you described, a sort of Intolerance.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

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Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
At certain times in history, landed nobility existed along side peasantry such that the lowest nobles had a similar status to the highest peasants (your merchant princes and such). Now, i'm talking about Status, not Rank, so Courtesy Rank isn't available to help out here.
I suspect it is. Social Engineering (p. 13) specifically notes that a title which doesn't grant actual power may be treated as Courtesy Rank. Something similar's going on here. There's a title which doesn't grant more power than the state of someone with a certain level of influence without a title, but it does grant small social distinctions. If the wealthy technically-a-peasant Yeoman Hengelbert has about the same real power and ability to command deference from other people as the rustic Baron Guilloume du Poivre, then they have the same Status. However, since the Baron gets a handful of minor courtesies like governorship of the board of judges at the annual cattle fair and the best seat at the cider tasting festival, he gets Courtesy Rank as well.

I'll note here that the kinds of distinctions you're talking about (new money vs. old, merchants vs. old-style chivalric gentry) loom much larger these days, when social standing is the only thing old families have going for them, than they did when the people with titles were also at least some of the people with power. The old aristocracy could get preferential treatment in various ways (leading processions rather than following, getting seats at the front of assemblies, etc.), but these were mostly, as you say, nuances which can be dispensed with using Courtesy Rank. Status is Status, however you get it. When it counts, no king of Spain or France is going to look down on or dismiss Venice or Florence because they're republics run by merchants.

It strikes me that the real distinction of aristocrats in times where there's a mix of powerful old nobility and new merchant powers is in an entirely different area: Heir. Individuals well away from any real prospects or influence could be picked up and sponsored by real powers because they had some kind of tenuous connection to something significant. Bastard son of the King of Ning? Good enough to convince the Duke of Earl to bring you into his court and keep you around in case things don't work out with the old king's nephew who succeeded him. Imma have to think about how to apply limitations to Heir to make this all work out...
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:00 AM   #4
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Imma have to think about how to apply limitations to Heir to make this all work out...
I think that's just a perk, bought to reserve the right to buy Heir later, if things that can't be predicted happen.
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Old 12-06-2017, 09:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
I suspect it is. Social Engineering (p. 13) specifically notes that a title which doesn't grant actual power may be treated as Courtesy Rank. Something similar's going on here. There's a title which doesn't grant more power than the state of someone with a certain level of influence without a title, but it does grant small social distinctions. If the wealthy technically-a-peasant Yeoman Hengelbert has about the same real power and ability to command deference from other people as the rustic Baron Guilloume du Poivre, then they have the same Status. However, since the Baron gets a handful of minor courtesies like governorship of the board of judges at the annual cattle fair and the best seat at the cider tasting festival, he gets Courtesy Rank as well.
I get where you're coming from. Baron Guilloume du Poivre can exercise his actual Rank to get perks that Hengelbert does not by virtue of mere Status have access to. Also thanks for reminding me exactly what Status does; I was starting to conflate it with just social status - not keeping it to social influence.

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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
I'll note here that the kinds of distinctions you're talking about (new money vs. old, merchants vs. old-style chivalric gentry) loom much larger these days, when social standing is the only thing old families have going for them, than they did when the people with titles were also at least some of the people with power. The old aristocracy could get preferential treatment in various ways (leading processions rather than following, getting seats at the front of assemblies, etc.), but these were mostly, as you say, nuances which can be dispensed with using Courtesy Rank. Status is Status, however you get it. When it counts, no king of Spain or France is going to look down on or dismiss Venice or Florence because they're republics run by merchants.

It strikes me that the real distinction of aristocrats in times where there's a mix of powerful old nobility and new merchant powers is in an entirely different area: Heir. Individuals well away from any real prospects or influence could be picked up and sponsored by real powers because they had some kind of tenuous connection to something significant. Bastard son of the King of Ning? Good enough to convince the Duke of Earl to bring you into his court and keep you around in case things don't work out with the old king's nephew who succeeded him. Imma have to think about how to apply limitations to Heir to make this all work out...
Very good points, and the historical insight is extremely helpful. Now I need to think about heirs, too. This sort of thing has always been interesting, but I never really delve into it when gaming. Usually, we just kill things and take their stuff...lol
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:29 AM   #6
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

Actually, it's more complex than Turhan's Bey Company describes.

Status by itself does not actually convey the power to command, not by itself. It conveys the ability to be treated with respect and indeed deference. See also the chapter on influencing societies, which discusses such benefits of Status as the ability to make one-time contacts and the ability to exercise leadership informally. But it doesn't make you part of a formal hierarchy with the right to exercise some form of legal authority. If we're dealing with a duc or comte, that would be Feudal Rank, bought in conjunction with Status and at the same level. The point of this is that, for example, a minor roi with Status 6 and Political Rank 6, costing 60 points, can plausibly give orders to a colonel or a minor general with Military Rank 6 or 7, costing 30 or 35 points.

How is Status without Feudal Rank (or Political Rank, for a president or governor) different from Courtesy Rank? I would say that with Courtesy Rank, you don't get the benefit of enhanced leadership and contacts and other forms of influence. You can associate with people who do, and be treated as a peer who has the right to be there, and *they* might do those things at your suggestion; but everyone knows you're not a real aristocrat, just as a retired captain is addressed as "Captain" but doesn't have the right to give orders.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company View Post
When it counts, no king of Spain or France is going to look down on or dismiss Venice or Florence because they're republics run by merchants.
In Power Politics people tend to adapt. Affections are a luxury for civil life. Venice has the power to make itself noticed and so must be treated with courtesy.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:13 AM   #8
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

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Originally Posted by Humabout View Post
At certain times in history, landed nobility existed along side peasantry such that the lowest nobles had a similar status to the highest peasants (your merchant princes and such). Now, i'm talking about Status, not Rank, so Courtesy Rank isn't available to help out here.

My question is how would you model a guild master or merchant prince type's social standing as opposed to a low level noble, both of whom have, say, Status 3 in such a way that they play differently in social settings. Also, I am imagining a good bit of disdain toward the merchant prince from the noble, but I don't know that this is a quirk or Intolerance, so much as it is an effect of having hereditary title vs. being a social climber.

I'd love to get some insight into this sort of nuance from those who actually make use of this sort of thing in their games. I'd be particularly appreciative of actual gameplay stories. Thanks in advance!
A noble can refuse challenge from a merchant without it reflecting on his honor. What that actually means is that he can give mortal insults to a merchant without physical fear. That means he is going to treat a noble more formally if not necessarily with more substantial courtesy.

The things that make a noble are land, war, Independent Income, and family. The need for heirs and the nonfungiblity of land makes for different kin strategies then a merchant uses. Both the noble and the merchant use a web of promises but the noble depends on "covenants" which agree to a social relationship and the merchant depends on "contracts" which are purely economic and end with the transaction. That is Shylock's money and Antonio's are equally good, but Macbeth's and Duncan's are not.

Also a noble spends more on propaganda then a merchant who is free to invest in moneymaking projects. As a result comes the cliché of the impoverished but dignified noble and the rich but vulgar merchant.

A noble is basically a subliminated Germanic warlord. A merchant is a city dude. In practice there seems to have been less distinction in the early middle ages when everyone was clawing for their niche.

One way to model it is the value of Reputation points. A noble should be more concerned with their value. Stagger the game appropriately.
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Old 12-06-2017, 04:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Modeling Social Nuances

While not directly on that NPC or PC character sheet it matters for the others NPCs that have Intolerance: Jumped up commoners or Delusion: Blood will tell. Or the ones that have Intolerance: Aristocrats or Delusion: Useless inbreds.
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