12-06-2017, 08:08 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Aug 2008
|
Modeling Social Nuances
At certain times in history, landed nobility existed along side peasantry such that the lowest nobles had a similar status to the highest peasants (your merchant princes and such). Now, i'm talking about Status, not Rank, so Courtesy Rank isn't available to help out here.
My question is how would you model a guild master or merchant prince type's social standing as opposed to a low level noble, both of whom have, say, Status 3 in such a way that they play differently in social settings. Also, I am imagining a good bit of disdain toward the merchant prince from the noble, but I don't know that this is a quirk or Intolerance, so much as it is an effect of having hereditary title vs. being a social climber. I'd love to get some insight into this sort of nuance from those who actually make use of this sort of thing in their games. I'd be particularly appreciative of actual gameplay stories. Thanks in advance!
__________________
Buy My Stuff! Free Stuff: Dungeon Action! Totem Spirits My Blog: Above the Flatline. |
12-06-2017, 08:17 AM | #2 |
Join Date: Jun 2017
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
Perhaps you want more nuance than this, but maybe having different "Statuses" with some sort of limitations on it?
So, "Status (Merchant Class only) 1; Status (Nobility only) 3"? Social climber could have a social stigma ("Newly rich"), and personal inter-relations could also be as you described, a sort of Intolerance. |
12-06-2017, 08:44 AM | #3 | |
Aluminated
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: East of the moon, west of the stars, close to buses and shopping
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
Quote:
I'll note here that the kinds of distinctions you're talking about (new money vs. old, merchants vs. old-style chivalric gentry) loom much larger these days, when social standing is the only thing old families have going for them, than they did when the people with titles were also at least some of the people with power. The old aristocracy could get preferential treatment in various ways (leading processions rather than following, getting seats at the front of assemblies, etc.), but these were mostly, as you say, nuances which can be dispensed with using Courtesy Rank. Status is Status, however you get it. When it counts, no king of Spain or France is going to look down on or dismiss Venice or Florence because they're republics run by merchants. It strikes me that the real distinction of aristocrats in times where there's a mix of powerful old nobility and new merchant powers is in an entirely different area: Heir. Individuals well away from any real prospects or influence could be picked up and sponsored by real powers because they had some kind of tenuous connection to something significant. Bastard son of the King of Ning? Good enough to convince the Duke of Earl to bring you into his court and keep you around in case things don't work out with the old king's nephew who succeeded him. Imma have to think about how to apply limitations to Heir to make this all work out...
__________________
I've been making pointlessly shiny things, and I've got some gaming-related stuff as well as 3d printing designs. Buy my Warehouse 23 stuff, dammit! |
|
12-06-2017, 09:00 AM | #4 |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
I think that's just a perk, bought to reserve the right to buy Heir later, if things that can't be predicted happen.
__________________
The Path of Cunning. Indexes: DFRPG Characters, Advantage of the Week, Disadvantage of the Week, Skill of the Week, Techniques. |
12-06-2017, 09:06 AM | #5 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2008
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Buy My Stuff! Free Stuff: Dungeon Action! Totem Spirits My Blog: Above the Flatline. |
||
12-06-2017, 10:29 AM | #6 |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
Actually, it's more complex than Turhan's Bey Company describes.
Status by itself does not actually convey the power to command, not by itself. It conveys the ability to be treated with respect and indeed deference. See also the chapter on influencing societies, which discusses such benefits of Status as the ability to make one-time contacts and the ability to exercise leadership informally. But it doesn't make you part of a formal hierarchy with the right to exercise some form of legal authority. If we're dealing with a duc or comte, that would be Feudal Rank, bought in conjunction with Status and at the same level. The point of this is that, for example, a minor roi with Status 6 and Political Rank 6, costing 60 points, can plausibly give orders to a colonel or a minor general with Military Rank 6 or 7, costing 30 or 35 points. How is Status without Feudal Rank (or Political Rank, for a president or governor) different from Courtesy Rank? I would say that with Courtesy Rank, you don't get the benefit of enhanced leadership and contacts and other forms of influence. You can associate with people who do, and be treated as a peer who has the right to be there, and *they* might do those things at your suggestion; but everyone knows you're not a real aristocrat, just as a retired captain is addressed as "Captain" but doesn't have the right to give orders.
__________________
Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
12-06-2017, 10:48 AM | #7 |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
In Power Politics people tend to adapt. Affections are a luxury for civil life. Venice has the power to make itself noticed and so must be treated with courtesy.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison |
12-06-2017, 11:13 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
Quote:
The things that make a noble are land, war, Independent Income, and family. The need for heirs and the nonfungiblity of land makes for different kin strategies then a merchant uses. Both the noble and the merchant use a web of promises but the noble depends on "covenants" which agree to a social relationship and the merchant depends on "contracts" which are purely economic and end with the transaction. That is Shylock's money and Antonio's are equally good, but Macbeth's and Duncan's are not. Also a noble spends more on propaganda then a merchant who is free to invest in moneymaking projects. As a result comes the cliché of the impoverished but dignified noble and the rich but vulgar merchant. A noble is basically a subliminated Germanic warlord. A merchant is a city dude. In practice there seems to have been less distinction in the early middle ages when everyone was clawing for their niche. One way to model it is the value of Reputation points. A noble should be more concerned with their value. Stagger the game appropriately.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison Last edited by jason taylor; 12-06-2017 at 11:36 AM. |
|
12-06-2017, 04:38 PM | #9 |
Join Date: Mar 2008
|
Re: Modeling Social Nuances
While not directly on that NPC or PC character sheet it matters for the others NPCs that have Intolerance: Jumped up commoners or Delusion: Blood will tell. Or the ones that have Intolerance: Aristocrats or Delusion: Useless inbreds.
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|