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Old 09-20-2018, 10:05 PM   #31
Daigoro
 
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

Question G discussion
Looking around at peaks with a large prominence, someone mentioned Nanga Parbat (8,126m) as being the largest free standing mountain. Checking it out, there's a large grassland area nearby (Fairy Meadow at 3300m). The map shows it's about 20km long by 10km across, and it stands 4600m up from its col. It has a few glaciers and lakes, but I haven't found a contour map yet to know their altitudes. (Photos! Link!) It marks the end of the Himalayas, so that could work with Knurlkyth being alone and disconnected from the Ornthrond range.

It has some of the criteria, but I'm not sure about the high pastures, and it kind of matches some of your description above. Anyway, it could serve to give an idea to imagine Knurlkyth, and other suggestions are still welcome.
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Last edited by Daigoro; 09-20-2018 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 09-20-2018, 10:49 PM   #32
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

Nanga Parbat

https://maps.google.com/?q=Nanga+Par...0e2393cfebe6c2

And Machu Picchu as a comparison and inspiration


https://goo.gl/maps/V2RRSwHvLdP2
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Old 09-20-2018, 11:18 PM   #33
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Seems Google provides a topographic map, which is nice. But I had to Google for it, I can't find the switch when looking at the map normally. Don't forget to play with the 3D satellite view either.
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Old 09-21-2018, 04:57 PM   #34
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

Revised food calculations, High altitude terraces
5,500 tonnes of grain
15,000 tonnes of potatoes
10,000 tonnes of fungus.
5,000 tonnes of animal protein (fish, pork, dairy, beef, lama and sheep meat)
2,000 tonnes of other foods (low by human standards)
Variation of maybe 20% on an annual basis.
Supporting up to roughly 30,000 people, but still reliant on the middle gate system for a healthy variety of food.

The short season at altitude means the farmers typically have time for other tasks in winter, though there is a lot of infrastructure to maintain.

One question comes to mind
Question 26
Why do the dwarves choose to not farm at lower altitudes?
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Last edited by (E); 09-22-2018 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 05:02 AM   #35
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

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Originally Posted by (E) View Post
One question comes to mind
Question 26
Why do the dwarves choose to not farm at lower altitudes?
Their farms are simply safer from raiders at high altitude. Some of their traditional enemies like to burn and destroy orderly things, and while the dwarves can take revenge, that doesn't bring back destroyed food or infrastructure. The dwarves are willing to sacrificae productivity for safety.

Questions 27
Who are the city's uncultured enemies?
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Old 09-22-2018, 07:25 AM   #36
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

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Originally Posted by (E) View Post
Revised food calculations, High altitude terraces
5,500 tonnes of grain
15,000 tonnes of potatoes
10,000 tonnes of fungus.
5,000 tonnes of animal protein (fish
2,000 tonnes of other foods (low by human standards)
Variation of maybe 20% on an annual basis.
Supporting up to roughly 30,000 people, but still reliant on the middle gate system for a healthy variety of food.

The short season at altitude means the farmers typically have time for other tasks in winter, though there is a lot of infrastructure to maintain.

One question comes to mind
Question 26
Why do the dwarves choose to not farm at lower altitudes?
Enough food to feed 30,000 people requires a minimum of 60,000 acres of arable land (fungi need a lot of biomass for production, so you really only gain diversity with mushrooms, never increased production), assuming two crops a year and a two field rotation (one acre fallow for every acre under production). In a mountainous area, you would be lucky to have 10% of the land being arable, and that is only with terrace farms, meaning that the city requires a minimum of 600,000 acres of territory. If we assume that they produce an excess as a hedge against poor crops to prevent famine, we increase it to 800,000 acres or 1,250 square miles.
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

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Question 3 (Continued)
There is a superstition against things that come third. How would one notice this in daily life in the city?
Most local dwarves perceive three floor buildings to be cursed death traps. However, dwarves count underground levels as stories. The Guild of Pillars exploits this to construct buildings that rise three stories off the ground. Floors with only three rooms are avoided, but this is a minor architectural constraint. In rural areas, buildings typically rise one or three stories off the ground. This is because underground cellars are desirable for food preservation. Since the cellar counts as a floor, they can't build a two story building without it being "cursed".

This superstition affects urban planning. Three way intersections are viewed as causing accidents. This makes three way intersections a NIMBY in this culture. Intersections are commonly two and four way in this region. Tunnels to nowhere are often built just to add a fourth road for an intersection. These tunnels are prioritized for future development due to their expense. This incentivizes a far more grid-based structure than one would expect for a low tech society. Urban navigation is a lot easier in the dwarven cities.

Question 28

What is the government's policy towards historic areas where three way intersections still exists? Are there laws protecting historic buildings from being demolished to allow conversion to four way intersections? Or is eminent domain used aggressively to eliminate the "cursed" intersections?
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:21 AM   #38
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

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Question 28

What is the government's policy towards historic areas where three way intersections still exists? Are there laws protecting historic buildings from being demolished to allow conversion to four way intersections? Or is eminent domain used aggressively to eliminate the "cursed" intersections?
If an intersection is fairly new, then it's usually quickly modified by the locals. (Such happenings are usually unhappy accidents.)

If the three-way intersection's been around for a while, though - say more than fifty years - it's considered worse bad luck to alter it than to leave it as it is. Such intersections give rise to bad neighborhoods, and unpleasant industries are often relegated to those neighborhoods. The residents sometimes display a perverse pride - "We're tough enough to live in a triangle district!"

Given the nature of excavation and urban planning, accidental three-way intersections are rare underground; they're much more likely to occur above ground following paths of desire or prior development by other races. An awful lot of dwarf "ghost stories" revolve around a three-way intersection marked by a three-story inn...

As to why threes are unlucky? A rationalist might point out that triangles are seen as dynamic shapes, while dwarves value stability (they're a bunch of squares). A mystically aware rationalist might point out that in a world with spirits, symbols like that matter quite a lot.

Question 28
Given all that, which dwarves handle the sacred architecture/geomancy of Knurlkyth, and what secrets does that hide?
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:31 AM   #39
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Default Re: [GAME] Collaborative World Building Dwarven city as a start

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Originally Posted by Emerald Cat View Post
Question 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
Question 28
Given all that, which dwarves handle the sacred architecture/geomancy of Knurlkyth, and what secrets does that hide?
Perhaps 28 is especially auspicious.. or 29 significantly cursed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollonian View Post
Given the nature of excavation and urban planning, accidental three-way intersections are rare underground
I'd expect they could just build an extra narrow, short alley way to even the number up.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #40
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Quote:
Question 10
What are the 11 recognized guilds? Are there unrecognized guilds?
Answer 10B - More on Unrecognised Guilds
These aren't unrecognised as in unknown or secret, but instead as in unrepresented on the The Workers' Bench.


Guild U2) - Guild of the Plumb
Craftsmen of this guild use the tools of the plumb line, sextant, plan and ruler to meticulously survey and lay out the city's structure and every inch of mine. Without their services, building projects would undermine existing corridors or break through a neighbour's back wall. And with the city's complex system of heat exchangers and water shafts, striking a pick into the wrong wall could bring a very wet catastrophe.

Currently registered as a sub-guild of the Pillar, the Guild of the Plumb used to have a seat on the Workers' Bench, until some five centuries ago, and they perennially campaign to have their full status as a craft guild reinstated. They are right now, for four years running, on strike. Plumb Master Hewarth is adamant that not a circumferentor will be spun in earnest until the Assembly accepts her petition for reinstatement. This strike is holding up any number of projects, including the Grand Staircase.


Guild U3) - League of the Boot
This is the union of the city's traders and merchants. In other contexts they might be called the Merchant's Guild, but they do not practise a craft as such, nor do they spend much time in the city, so despite their key importance to the city's great economic prosperity they cannot be granted guild status. Without that guild status they cannot have a seat on the Workers' Bench, but they are nonetheless usually well-represented on the Gold Bench.

The league represents the traders and merchants who take the city's produce and merchandise abroad. The food merchants represented by the Guild of the Horn are more correctly called provisioners, and only trade between different suppliers and customers within the city.

For most noble families, their first- and second-born go on to be leaders of their houses, honoured craftsmen and masters or respected warriors. The weirdly (that is, unluckily) begotten third-born children of noble families find it more difficult to gain a placement in the craft or war guilds, so they gravitate toward this merchant's league, where they can get away from the dumb superstitions of their hometown and make their own name for themselves out in the world.

-----

Question 30 - Guild of the Plumb's transgression
What's the historical reason for the guild losing its full status? And why are they usually denied reinstatement, especially when the Guild of Glassworkers - hardly even craftsmen!! - have a seat on the bench? And is there a compromise that could be reached to get them back to work?

Question 31 - League of the Boot's reputation
What opinion do most dwarves have about their far-trading mercantile brethren?

-----

Cultural Notes
Skorra- Elevation Lines
Just as we assign names to geographic meridians, such as the Greenwich Meridian or the Tropic of Capricorn, the dwarves name their significant levels of elevation and isotherms, to a probably obsessive extent, with the term "skorra". Almost all dwarves will know these by heart, and will casually drop them into speech without hesitation. They are used as shorthand for many aspects of daily life, usually without attaching the words "skorra of". Thus, a shepherd might mention he's taking the sheep down to Polgorn for a graze, or council discussion will focus on extending the stairway as far as Filgar.

Skorra o' Uefilgar- Forge Level: Having little knowledge or use for the sea, their reference point for elevation is not sea level but height above or below the line of the city's forge. Relative height above or below this is often marked on gates, signs and buildings within and near the city. Other major elevations at multiples of 1000 yards from this are also named, as well as major features such as the gates.
Some examples:
Skorra o' Filgar- 1000 yds above the forge
Skorra o' Korgen- 1000 yds below
Skorra o' Gythmark- 2000 yds below
Skorra o' Halred- floor level of the High Gate
Skorra o' Sonnarg- floor level of the Mid Gate
Skorra o' Polgorn- floor level of the Low Gate
Skorra o' Scylfhog- altitude of the nearest peak, sometimes a tactical consideration

Skorra o' Val- Lowest Water Mark: Marks the lowest allowable extent for mining or boring, equal to the floorbed of the region's lowest significant body of water. The actual correct calculation of this skorra is a source of great debate and contention, relying as it does on subjective definitions for "region" and "significant", so the more conservative estimates are usually widely accepted, while renegade or vainglorious miners will opt for deeper values.

Thermal Skorra: Going deeper into the mountain yields higher temperatures, but temperature can also vary with lateral proximity to the surface, underground hydrology and many other factors. Still, a way of tracking nominal isotherms is considered useful, especially with the city's reliance on geothermal heating for water.
Skorra o' Forsta- level of 20°C, depth for comfortable habitation
Skorra o' Leminga- level of 50°C, the target depth level for useful water heating, also the maximum for mining without cooling gear (although nevertheless difficult)
Skorra o' Halda- level of 100°C, target depth for geothermal power supply concepts


Dates
Of course, time keeping is also forge-related. The current year is 3999 FFF, From the Forge's Firing.


ETA: I'll come back and label the elevations above sea level when we have some firm numbers.
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