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Old 12-14-2014, 06:10 PM   #121
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
For what it's worth, this is true for feinting IRL too.

Stomps are really good for capturing a fighter's attention and prompting them to anticipate movement that stomper never has to actually commit to.
That was actually one of the things that inspired Delayed Gratification, by the way. There are some things where you launch a real attack to pull defenses to a particular position that leaves you ready to do something else. Those are Setup Attacks.

There are other things that involve body posture, timing, "look, your shoes are untied!" (OK, that's a Ruse) that don't pull your weapon offline but DO fake your foe out. Those are Feints.
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Old 12-15-2014, 12:12 AM   #122
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I'm don't think it's legal to mix it like that. A Feint is a type of Attack as well as a type of Manoeuvre; a CA or DA are types of Manoeuvres only. Now, Telegraphic Attack is another matter, but there's no such thing as a Telegraphic Feint.
Yes sorry typo, that should have said "you can't" not "you can"

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Ah. Certainly a serious consideration. I thought that Defensive-Attack Feints either get the penalty equivalent to the technique conversion between damage and skill in the Technique Design, or provides a bonus to resistance. Turns out there's no such note there. Weird.
Well you could always try it out, so long as you had some kind of trade off, I see no reason why it couldn't work

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Taken slightly out of context, but relevant for discussion of Feint variants:
Of course this is an endorsement, not a holy and canonical thing. ^_^
I think that's more about saying feints are not just pretending to hit someone with your weapon (certainly true enough) rather than saying anything about mixing them together with attack options and AoA options.

FWIW I'm not anti mixing them with Attack options and AoA options (in fact the latter is already specifically agreed to). so long as they carry the trade off.

The thing is because the attack will not actually land the trade off on some options and AoA's will not be equal, valid or make sense when tied to a feint.

But ultimately that wasn't really my concern here anyway. My issue was the fact that we getting more and more OTT with combinations of things and trigger points that basically allows one person to dance around and attack from behind someone who had no ability to respond to that (or in fact taking advantage of the fact that you could get another step from his attack but he had to remain motionless while attacking).

All of which seemed against the spirit of GURPS combat where people are acting concurrently with each other, and there actions are a continuum, rather than a series of rules based 'lobster traps'.

basically even taking individually reasonable steps, you can get some where unreasonable in total.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-15-2014 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 12-15-2014, 02:31 AM   #123
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
I think that's more about saying feints are not just pretending to hit someone with your weapon (certainly true enough) rather than saying anything about mixing them together with attack options and AoA options.

FWIW I'm not anti mixing them with Attack options and AoA options (in fact the latter is already specifically agreed to). so long as they carry the trade off.

The thing is because the attack will not actually land the trade off on some options and AoA's will not be equal, valid or make sense when tied to a feint.

But ultimately that wasn't really my concern here anyway. My issue was the fact that we getting more and more OTT with combinations of things and trigger points that basically allows one person to dance around and attack from behind someone who had no ability to respond to that (or in fact taking advantage of the fact that you could get another step from his attack but he had to remain motionless while attacking).

All of which seemed against the spirit of GURPS combat where people are acting concurrently with each other, and there actions are a continuum, rather than a series of rules based 'lobster traps'.

basically even taking individually reasonable steps, you can get some where unreasonable in total.
I brought up the quote because it seems to endorse (but not exactly RAWify) the idea that Feints don't necessarily work the same way strikes do.

That being said, I've also encountered (but don't remember where) the statement that AoA(L) is legit for Feints, and does add +1 Reach.

As for the difference between step-by-step representation, and how it looks in real combat - well, these things can be quite different. For examples, see Rapid Strike representing thrusting with a blade then twisting it, striking both enemy legs with a single blow, stomping-and-grinding etc. (MA127).

I like the sound of 'lobster trap', but its meaning seems to indicate something non-approved. Could you expand the meaning of the term?
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Old 12-15-2014, 04:16 AM   #124
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I brought up the quote because it seems to endorse (but not exactly RAWify) the idea that Feints don't necessarily work the same way strikes do.

That being said, I've also encountered (but don't remember where) the statement that AoA(L) is legit for Feints, and does add +1 Reach.
you posted it earlier it's in MA regarding AoA's.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
As for the difference between step-by-step representation, and how it looks in real combat - well, these things can be quite different. For examples, see Rapid Strike representing thrusting with a blade then twisting it, striking both enemy legs with a single blow, stomping-and-grinding etc. (MA127).

Yeah but those tend to be more about flavour text, rather than actual combat value (IMO some of them make no sense, but lets not go there right now).

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I like the sound of 'lobster trap', but its meaning seems to indicate something non-approved. Could you expand the meaning of the term?
Sorry metaphor on RPGS combat systems probably not great idea.
A lobster trap works by being a one way door, the Lobster can get in, but then can't go back out.

In this context I was referencing the fact that the one combatant is free to run around behind and grapple the other who terms of facing is fixed in place, despite being able to attack (and in fact the combatant leverages that to parry and slip in order to get more movement)!

The fact that the wait was worded to trigger at the precise moment that the attacker loses the ability to take there facing changes. Which was the Lobster trap, because once he takes his hex step and doesn't do any facing changes (because why would he) bam the trap is sprung he's then fixed in place as the other chap dances around leveraging all these extra steps. He can't go back (he lost his chance to change facing).

And it's meta game one as well. Because people don't complete moving and then then fight, they move and fight at the same time. Now GURPS as a system has to be somewhat step by step just to resolve stuff, but I don't think it best to abuse that. Either way the clarification that facing changes can be taken more freely solves this issue, as does the fact that a CA feint if allowed comes with the CA negatives.
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Old 12-15-2014, 04:55 AM   #125
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
you posted it earlier it's in MA regarding AoA's.
Hah. Silly me.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yeah but those tend to be more about flavour text, rather than actual combat value (IMO some of them make no sense, but lets not go there right now).
I'd be interesting into going into them elsethread, though. Probably in a more general way, not restricted to just RS.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
[ . . . ]

And it's meta game one as well. Because people don't complete moving and then then fight, they move and fight at the same time. Now GURPS as a system has to be somewhat step by step just to resolve stuff, but I don't think it best to abuse that. Either way the clarification that facing changes can be taken more freely solves this issue, as does the fact that a CA feint if allowed comes with the CA negatives.
What I often have problem with, is drawing the line between a honest match of Man-To-Man-'Chess', and abuse of the system. Divining that requires knowing RAI, at the very minimum.
On one hand, I want a ruleset that maps mostly 1:1 to descriptions of events. On the other, it has been stated that what descriptively happens can only be interpreted after all the game-mechanical issues have been resolved within a turn sequence.
I remember a clarification that when the first, third and seventh 'shot' in a beam weapon RoF attack hit, that does not necessarily mean on-off-on-off shots, but rather that at some point within those ten shots, three in a row got on-target.

So it's not at all clear whether making three steps around a 'trapped' opponent should be described literally, as the opponent not turning around at all, or as the opponent starting to turn immediately, but still suffering penalised / auto-failed defences until he gets to recover from his spin. And I do mean not clear, I don't mean to say that it's necessarily the 'excusing' description.

So . . . separate thread about abstraction vs. literal mapping between system and description?
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:05 AM   #126
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
That sounds like a really scary situation, but one that you managed without getting cut/stabbed.

I tip my hat to your victory, and I hope you got some good licks in before the cops pulled you off.
Thanks! I wasn't very satisfied with the results of the physical confrontation (he got a few hard elbows; I got a half-chewed-off finger), but nobody got stabbed, and my testimony about it became key in his First-Degree Murder (of his girlfriend, by stabbing) trial 11 years later, which he got life without parole for. I like to describe it as, "The finger took one for the Internal Organ and Society Teams."
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:09 AM   #127
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Hey all.

I've edited the first post in this thread to show the 3 mentioned methods of dealing with a knife attacker while unarmed.

I'll repost them here for those of you who don't feel like surfing back to the beginning of the thread:

In no particular order...

1. Judo Parry to Arm Lock (then anything after that is just gravy)
2. Karate Kick to knife hand (with lots of DA to reduce the parry chance)
3. Judo/Karate attack to Disarm (with improved Disarm technique from Martial Arts)
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:17 AM   #128
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post
Hey all.

I've edited the first post in this thread to show the 3 mentioned methods of dealing with a knife attacker while unarmed. [snip]
I respectfully object to the omission of, "Unskilled AoA (Determined) Grapple Knife Arm + Throw the Bastard Around until he Critfails and Drops It," as a mentioned method, given that I actually did it and it mostly worked once.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:24 AM   #129
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

Yay, I found the ruling on Close Combat and Facing:
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In close combat in GURPS, there is no "side." If you entered through the back three hex-sides of your foe's hex, you're "behind," while if you entered through the front three hex-sides, you're "in front." We very specifically left out the notion of "side" from close-combat techniques and combat options.
So stepping into the back of someone through the Side-Back hex is indeed an option. No need for risky AoA.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:45 AM   #130
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
I respectfully object to the omission of, "Unskilled AoA (Determined) Grapple Knife Arm + Throw the Bastard Around until he Critfails and Drops It," as a mentioned method, given that I actually did it and it mostly worked once.
You know, to be fair, it may not be a bad idea, depending on how the GM feels about Throws from Locks.

Since you are going to AoA, it makes sense to pick something that is as close to a guaranteed win as possible.

So we start with an AoA (Double).

1st attack: Grab the arm with the knife (inflicting CP if you are using TG).

2nd attack: Rapid strike with an Arm Lock followed by a Throw from the lock.

There are some bits here that make it manageable.

#1 With Judo 18, you can dump 4 CP to improve Arm Lock to Skill-22. That means you can soak that -6 for Rapid strike and do both actions at effective skill 16. You can leave it there for crit fishing or drop it to 14 for a little DA.

#2 You do SWING damage to the limb holding the knife (likely crippling it and inflicting a Major Wound), the bad guy gets thrown, so he checks for stun AND is prone. He's likely dropped the knife and any attacks he does on his turn will suffer from Shock AND position penalties, that is assuming he isn't stunned and gets to attack at all.

There is some risk here as a Knife Parry vs. the initial grab and vs. the Arm Lock will result in damage to you from the knife, but a little DA should help with that as well.

If you start with a Judo Grabbing Parry, then you only need EITHER the AoA(D) or the Rapid Strike for the the Lock+Throw. In that case, I would Rapid Strike over the AoA.

I suppose this is really just a variation of option #1.
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