When Unkillable Shuts Down...

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Add Cosmic 50% and the healing needs Cosmic to heal the affliction.

I'm beginning to think that in this thread are a whole bunch of players who hold guns to their GM's head whilst getting their characters approved. 'Cosmic' this, 'Cosmic' that.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Add Cosmic 50% and the healing needs Cosmic to heal the affliction.

True. However, Cosmic, Lingering Effect and/or Unhealing (whichever you feel is more appropriate) is worth +100% and is defeated by any Cosmic at the +50% level -- the arms race stops there; fortunately.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm beginning to think that in this thread are a whole bunch of players who hold guns to their GM's head whilst getting their characters approved. 'Cosmic' this, 'Cosmic' that.

Heh. Not in my case. I'm (almost exclusively) the GM in any game I'm participating in. I'm quite fine with Cosmic, though I don't call it Cosmic as I reserve that for the actual power source/modifier rather than for a general use 'rules exemption' enhancement.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'm beginning to think that in this thread are a whole bunch of players who hold guns to their GM's head whilst getting their characters approved. 'Cosmic' this, 'Cosmic' that.

Thankfully, Cosmic vs Cosmic resolves as normal abilities.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Afflictions can be cured via Healing w/ Cure Afflictions.

Good point. Full destruction of ones corpse does seem to be a necessity to ensure no-one Heals what's left of the corpse if you're going under the assumption that death is just a temporary state for an Unkillable character (I'm still not prescribing to this vain of thought however). It does mean that if you just hit an Unkillable with the Affliction and run away thinking they'll never get better, then you'd be wrong though. Thanks for pointing that out.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Because the GM chooses where your Unkillable 3 character comes back, not you. Where is not incidental at all. It could be very useful, or an enormous drawback, depending where it is.

I really don't see why this should matter at all, we're debating if you come back or not - the drawbacks or benefits of where you come back is still dependant on if you come back at all. +50CP to say that your corpse can't be caught in molten streams deep within the earth is pretty useful in my opinion, as Mr Unkillable 2 really only needs to be sunk into a volcano to leave him with a few million years of continual damage to be suppressed by.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I don't know. Why is anyone bothering to get Unkillable when people can build powers that simply remove it?

Because should Mr Unkillable not run into Mr SlayItAll then they're still never rolling death checks and never dying. That is like saying "Why is Mr Psi bothering to get any Psi powers when other people can build devices or acquire powers to remove them from him?" - the answer is the same, because they're very useful when you've not run into your nemesis with your anti-power.

Originally Posted by Rupert

And why should a temporary suppression of a 150-point power work as well as permanent removal, which is what you're advocating?

It isn't. You still have to actually kill them whilst the temporary affect is active. Which if its only a window of a few minutes, and Mr Unkillable doesn't want to die (so flees/plays extra defensive) then you have a much harder time of achieving your goals than when you've all the time in the world (unless they find a Healer) to kill them.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Not at all. The way I see it, Unkillable 3 in that no-mana zone is dead until the mana level about their corpse is raised.

So you're saying total body destruction, where they're no more than an ash shadow on the wall of a no-mana zone still wouldn't kill them for good if the area became normal mana? Even though there is nothing left to come back from by this point? This seems implausible to me, you can't own the atomic remnants of what you once were, if there's nothing left - there's nothing to exist in (or out of) the no-mana zone any more. Mr Unkillable is both dead and doesn't exist - that really should be them gone for good, in my book.

Originally Posted by Rupert

What I wonder about your earlier post is why it's relevant that people 'have' to buy a bigger power. The whole thing smacks of an arms race between players and GM to me, and if that's the case the exact details of how various abilities interact is the least of the campaign's problems.

I never said you have to, I was asked how you would overcome this limitation - I suggest many ways to up the stakes. I even said that it basically just becomes an arms race because you can't just keep up-ing the stakes effectively and there will always be a set of circumstances to kill anything in GURPS. Your best bet is to cover as many weak spots and possible and play smart, really.

----

Look, I've presented my argument a few times now, I justified it as best I could, and in doing so have convinced myself that it's a sound concise answer that holds up to the logical rigours of the system. I've attempted to implement the standard rules of the system rather than adding extra special rules for power, as such my ruling correlates with every other ability in the game. Nothing says you can't add special rules, and if the wording of Unkillable was different then it may well define those special rules - but currently it doesn't in my opinion.

I'm happy for you to make your own rulings though, if you're not convinced by my argument then there's not much more I can do at this point other than repeat myself in different words. As I've no vested interest in winning you over, I'm not going to do this. This is firmly in the GMs domain anyway, in a setting where you can't buy Affliction (Negate Unkillable 3) this entire debate is moot. In a setting where players are frequently picking up Unkillable and there are entities in the world who can negate it - then its entirely up to GM to inform the players of this and explain what happens if they die whilst it's negated (whatever that ruling may be). I said similar in my first post.

So I think I'm calling it a day for this debate now, been fun though.

[Otaku]

I think both sides have presented sound cases, myself; unless I hear otherwise from an "official" source, I think this is something the GM should decide before hand (that way if they are not aligning with the rules as intended, it was still a conscious decision and can be written off as part of the game world).

I will bring up two questionable statements; not because they prove/disprove someone wrong but because they smack of miscommunication.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

Because should Mr Unkillable not run into Mr SlayItAll then they're still never rolling death checks and never dying. That is like saying "Why is Mr Psi bothering to get any Psi powers when other people can build devices or acquire powers to remove them from him?" - the answer is the same, because they're very useful when you've not run into your nemesis with your anti-power.

Many Psi Powers are useful in a much wider set of circumstances than Unkillable. In fact, the divide is between Powers/Abilities that either are actively keeping the character alive or are expected to trigger to save the character from death, and not knowing it was a possibility, let alone coming. Mr. Negator can come across as a very "cheap" (that is, unfair) character. The guy that can't die doesn't realize he can die until he's half (or more) dead.

The Psi on the other hand might realize it just because he tries to "read" Mr. Negator and can't. If Mr. Psi was levitating to fly through the air at high altitudes, speeds, or especially both and Mr. Negator hits him with a surprise whammy so that now he's just falling at high speeds... that's cheap as well.

This is especially true as Mr. Negator might be near incapable without catching others off guard. Unless the game is supposed to be that difficult, he should be there the whole time or not at all. "Zombie Lad takes another full burst of machine gun fire from The Perforator's weapons. Your Unkillable 3 means you're still functional. That is until Mr. Negator just shows up behind you. Now you're dead... and I mean dead dead forever more. Hope you have a new character ready or you're done for the night." In short, give them fair warning.

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

So you're saying total body destruction, where they're no more than an ash shadow on the wall of a no-mana zone still wouldn't kill them for good if the area became normal mana? Even though there is nothing left to come back from by this point? This seems implausible to me, you can't own the atomic remnants of what you once were, if there's nothing left - there's nothing to exist in (or out of) the no-mana zone any more. Mr Unkillable is both dead and doesn't exist - that really should be them gone for good, in my book.

Actually, since he mentioned a corpse, he isn't including total body destruction, or at least this was an assumption. Otherwise... this fits many settings with Unkillable. There are characters who require total (or constant) obliteration to effectively kill. Often (especially for villains), they are introduced because the last "constant kill" or "power suppression" effect finally broke down. Magic was restored to the land, so the Super-Lich rises again. The Cosmic Threat had to be tossed into the heart of the sun to constantly destroy his body... but a solar flare finally ejected enough of him from the sun and a solar wind carried that far enough away that his component molecules could at last safely drift back together in the void of space.

Again, all this stuff needs to be worked out ahead of time by the GM, and explained to the PC if/when the Advantage comes up.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

So you're saying total body destruction, where they're no more than an ash shadow on the wall of a no-mana zone still wouldn't kill them for good if the area became normal mana? Even though there is nothing left to come back from by this point? This seems implausible to me, you can't own the atomic remnants of what you once were, if there's nothing left - there's nothing to exist in (or out of) the no-mana zone any more. Mr Unkillable is both dead and doesn't exist - that really should be them gone for good, in my book.

Total body destruction isn't an issue with Unkillable 3. You get a new body anyway. The question which is on my mind is, assuming that the world does have ghostly life after death which isn't messed with by no mana zones, could said ghost come back to life...if the world building decision is to have souls be genuinely immortal, could one of those ghosts with magical Unkillable 3 come back should the site of its death have its mana raised?

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Total body destruction isn't an issue with Unkillable 3. You get a new body anyway. The question which is on my mind is, assuming that the world does have ghostly life after death which isn't messed with by no mana zones, could said ghost come back to life...if the world building decision is to have souls be genuinely immortal, could one of those ghosts with magical Unkillable 3 come back should the site of its death have its mana raised?

This should be something you ask the GM when making the character. In the end it's the GM's choice if it works one way or the other.
If the GM says no, you can't come back in that (or a similar) situation, then either accept that or see of you can take an enhancement to make it work the way you want.
My preference is to making Unkillable actually that. A GM who looks at someone who spent a good deal of points on being unable to die shouldn't be thinking "OK, now how can I make them die?", there are plenty of other ways to endanger the character.
You are an immortal with unkillable 3, so you think you can do anything with no repercussions (aside for an unexpected nap whenever you die), the police eventually catch you and lock you up. Well, how do you escape? You used your points on that Unkillable 3, not insubstantial or amazing levels of ST or whatever else. You could try to kill yourself to escape, but they'll probably just respond by putting you in a straightjacket.
-It's not going to keep you forever, but even if you can last forever, PCs won't see things in the long term like the character would, to them, their beloved immortal they spent weeks convincing the GM to let them have is now unable to do anything.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Total body destruction isn't an issue with Unkillable 3. You get a new body anyway. The question which is on my mind is, assuming that the world does have ghostly life after death which isn't messed with by no mana zones, could said ghost come back to life...if the world building decision is to have souls be genuinely immortal, could one of those ghosts with magical Unkillable 3 come back should the site of its death have its mana raised?

If somebody knows your UK3 requires some level of mana to work, aside from killing you in an NMZ, they're going to bury your body with some form of mana damper. If you just happen to fail a death check due to accidental bad things in the NMZ? Yeah, the ghost could probably form a new body if the mana level is somehow raised.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

If somebody knows your UK3 requires some level of mana to work, aside from killing you in an NMZ, they're going to bury your body with some form of mana damper. If you just happen to fail a death check due to accidental bad things in the NMZ? Yeah, the ghost could probably form a new body if the mana level is somehow raised.

Assuming being a ghost is not dependent on mana itself e.g. not directly tied to Unkillable 3 (Magical, -10%) or whatever the modifier is. In some settings, everyone will become a ghost (and Unkillable 3 is mostly about your body rebuilding itself), while in others you only have a shot at becoming a ghost... while in most of my settings it would require something extraordinary (at least by real world standards). The instant you are truly dead (emphasis on "truly" if I want the setting to have some wiggle room), you're heading to whatever the setting's afterlife is.

In which case moving the corpse from a no mana zone to a mana zone can have unpredictable results... well, at least from the PC's perspective. The main thing is that I'd inform the players of this ahead of time unless it was an explicit part of the campaign setting that they can have Unkillable 3 but not know for sure what happens if it is negated.