Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

[larsdangly]

It is perfectly true that one can come up with clever tactical plans using entangling weapons. But the foe gets a vote as well, so it isn't obvious you will ever get to realize those plans. A 8 ST combatant with a whip is extremely easy to kill, either at a distance (say, with a bow) or up close (with a spear charge, which can start out of range, reach its target and be delivered before the whip attack can be performed). Or other ideas you probably come up with.

[TippetsTX]

One common sense houserule that I apply to whips is that while you can strike a foe up to 5 hexes out, you may only attempt to 'entangle' a foe within 3 hexes. This is because you need a decent length of the whip to wrap around your target's legs or whatever.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

It is perfectly true that one can come up with clever tactical plans using entangling weapons. But the foe gets a vote as well, so it isn't obvious you will ever get to realize those plans. A ST combatant with a whip is extremely easy to kill, either at a distance (say, with a bow) or up close (with a spear charge, which can start out of range, reach its target and be delivered before the whip attack can be performed). Or other ideas you probably come up with.

Or give lassos to everyone in your army, and have them start by mass-entangling their hapless whip-equipped foes.

But that's not the point. The point is that all the entangling weapons are over-modeled to disregard the target and to be more effective than makes sense.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

One common sense houserule that I apply to whips is that while you can strike a foe up to 5 hexes out, you may only attempt to 'entangle' a foe within 3 hexes. This is because you need a decent length of the whip to wrap around your target's legs or whatever.

That makes sense to me.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Skarg

But that's not the point. The point is that all the entangling weapons are over-modeled to disregard the target and to be more effective than makes sense.

Perhaps one way to more effectively model this, without resorting to contested rolls, would be to separate the initial 'hit' roll from a second DX or ST role to 'secure' the target. I used to go to rodeos alot growing up and it seems clear from watching some of the events that getting the loop around your target is not the same thing as bringing it down.

[larsdangly]

Probably the simplest and most effective house rules to limit the effectiveness of thrown entangling weapons are:

1) Use thrown weapon range modifiers
2) Using aiming modifiers for any target other than the body.

These are already there as RAW and apply to all the other thrown weapons (excepting the boomerang, but that's a different question...). So, just use them.

[phiwum]

I guess there are some minor modifications I'll make to the bola rules and these might apply to other entangling weapons.

First, the way I picture a bola, it couldn't possibly entangle a three hex figure.

But I'm not sure about some of the smaller figures. A horse is two hexes, but I could totally see a horse being entangled. A low-to-the-ground figure like a basilisk (as I imagine one) I'm not sure about. (Snakes are clearly immune!)

I'm waffling on a bear. I guess I can't come up with a reason one couldn't entangle a bear's legs, but it sounds kinda off to me.

Skarg's proposed changes sound reasonable, but I'm not interested in making the game much more complicated for the sake of realism. Using the rule that one can dodge or defend if they haven't moved too far does serve to provide an adequate defense I think, though one can't dodge if they're engaged at that moment (even in the old rules?).

Anyway, good to hear all the comments. I haven't had any players choose whip or lasso yet and I haven't put any NPCs with those weapons in play, so I'm still thinking primarily in terms of bolas.

[Axly Suregrip]

I think part of the problem with entanglement weapons, net in particular, is that the results is always a knockdown. Achieving the entanglement should mean the net(etc) is on the target but does not necessarily mean they have fallen. But this is more about nets.

As far as the whip causing a knock down requiring a saving roll from the target, I just don't see that as consistent with most of TFT. Nor the argument that an knock down is too devastating to not have a saving roll. What can be more devastating than getting hit with a battleax, but there is no saving roll to that.

So what I am attempting is to tune the whip so that it is both balanced and more closely reflects reality.

One thing the rules just don't clearly state but maybe they hint at is the fact that once a lasso (or whip used like a lasso) succeeds in ensnaring, it is no longer available for any other use. ITL pg 113 says about Lassos "If the target is successfully lassoed, the lassoer may immediately pull the rope tight and proceed as he sees fit." And also, "Any creature caught by a lasso gets a saving roll ... every turn to loosen,..." The point is the rope or whip is from then on occupied. Either the attacker can choose to continue getting the entanglement advantage, damage or knock downs, or drop the rope/whip. This is certainly true of the lasso. With the whip the whipper can free it to get it back by giving it slack and pulling. This should be a separate action.

So, I am adding one more line to my whip rules:

Whip:
- Normal damage: 1-3
- May be used as a normal combat weapon, but only for range 3 to 5. No range or DX penalty. (unchanged)
- May be used like dagger markmenship throwing. No changes here. No range penalty since whip is not thrown and has a range restriction (only allowed at 3 hex range. ITL pg 120). Of course it still has the DX -6 penalty.
- May be used like a Lasso but with a -4 DX penalty. Only for range 3 to 5. No range penalty.
- Lasso affect vs body or arm may only be done if the foe is less than twice whipper's strength.
- Hex behind whipper must be empty (no wall, tree, friend or foe). Behind is opposite of where he/she is whipping.
- Intervening figures: must roll to miss for each. A failure to miss does no damage and stops the whip attack. (As always, straight down a hex seam avoids figures).
- Note if you used it like a Lasso that each turn the foe may attempt to escape by 3/DX roll. See ITL page 113. Still the affect for the first turn cannot be avoided.
- Once you have successfully used the whip like a Lasso, it takes one combat turn action to retrieve the whip.

[Axly Suregrip]

BTW, I will be starting new threads individually on Lassos, Bolas and Nets. This thread is about Whips.

Keeping them separate is needed to sort them out as they do function differently in real life.

[Axly Suregrip]

Humans with advantages or disadvantages when compared to my new whip rules. I feel this shows it has lots of given and takes, or at least we are getting close.

Whipper
ST8 DX16 IQ8
Whip use as lasso vs body
- net adjDX 12
- chance of a knock down: 74% (DX at 12)
- DX -4 to use as Lasso
- only affects targets with ST <= 15 (less than twice ST)
- can only be done at range 3 to 5 hexes
- no damage
- target must be humanoid.
- Lasso lasting effect but cannot be reused.
- best case: knock down someone different every other turn, since it takes a turn to retrieve


Trip Wizard
ST8 DX14 IQ10
Trip spell
- avg net adjDX 10 for whip range
- chance of a knock down: 50% (DX at 10)
- DX penalty at range 3 to 5 is -3 to -5 DX. About the same as -4 DX.
Advantages:
- affective up to ST30 foe
- can affect targets beyond ST30 for 4 ST cost instead
- can be used at ranges less than 3
- intervening figures do not block
- cannot dodge or defend against
- can do it every turn
Disadvantages:
- cost 2 ST fatigue. Costs 1 ST on a miss.


MagicFist Wizard
ST8 DX16 IQ8
3 die MagicFist. No range penalty at 3 to 5 hexes.
- net adjDX 16 for whip range, and a lot further
- chance of a knock down: 36% (DX at 15+ and dmg 6+)
Advantages:
- does damage in addition to knock down chance.
- does damage even when not knocking down
- range is from 1 hex to 8 MHx. Can do both shorter range and much longer range.
- can do it every turn
Disadvantages:
- cost 3 ST fatigue. Costs 3 ST on a miss but may hit others.
- must score 6 damage before armor to knock down. This happens 37.5% of the time.