Supercharging Magic for ST and DR

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

2) Aside from the multiple enchantments issue, what mechanism would anyone suggest for allowing certain spells to go above the listed limits? I would like a magic sword to be a big deal, but a sword with Puissance +5 is just not that much better than the original and far far cheaper mundane sword.

I would suggest the mechanism known as "GM Fiat." Why not just arbitrarily declare that spells like Might, Haste, Puissance, Armor, etc are ten or twenty times as good in this setting if you want the wizards to match or totally curbstomp the conventional high tech military? No muss, no fuss, unless you want to complicate it by making the really juicy stuff super top secret higher-tier magic with the published stuff as prereqs or something.

[munin]

Instead of ST bonuses, consider Shapeshifting (Cave Bear), about 5 to cast/2 to maintain for ST +13, or Shapeshifting (Elephant), 15/5 for ST +35. Instead of DR bonuses, think of armor with a Missile Shield enchantment, making them nearly immune to firearms. Add Resist Fire and Resist Lightning enchanted jewelry to negate flamethrowers and tasers. Body of Air works well against non-missiles. An Ethereal Body cape and/or Force Dome spells could be awesome against mundane enemies.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I would suggest the mechanism known as "GM Fiat." Why not just arbitrarily declare that spells like Might, Haste, Puissance, Armor, etc are ten or twenty times as good in this setting if you want the wizards to match or totally curbstomp the conventional high tech military? No muss, no fuss, unless you want to complicate it by making the really juicy stuff super top secret higher-tier magic with the published stuff as prereqs or something.

That's essentially what I am doing, I just want to make it relatively sensible and resistant to my very loophole-savvy players. I want to find a balance that enables solid power for the magical players without tipping the other side and making it too easy - they should be able to face off with a bunch of Goons (tm) but need to run like heck from a platoon of Troops (tm) (now with Kung Pao Grip!). And the Archmage, when he shows up, should be able to be loaded for bear.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by munin

Instead of ST bonuses, consider Shapeshifting (Cave Bear), about 5 to cast/2 to maintain for ST +13, or Shapeshifting (Elephant), 15/5 for ST +35. Instead of DR bonuses, think of armor with a Missile Shield enchantment, making them nearly immune to firearms. Add Resist Fire and Resist Lightning enchanted jewelry to negate flamethrowers and tasers. Body of Air works well against non-missiles. An Ethereal Body cape and/or Force Dome spells could be awesome against mundane enemies.

The ST issue is relatively small - I can work around it if I have to, although it would cost me a certain subgroup that I was hoping to use. As for the rest - unless they walk around with those spells up all the time (which I think tips the balance too far the other way) they are going to get slagged by the first bad guy smart enough to tag team - one guy with flamethrower or taser, one guy with SMG, so that either way your first spell leaves you vulnerable to one of them. And then they toss in a concussion grenade for good measure. The nice thing about Fortify is that it is always on, similar to technological options, and doesn't require spot thinking.

[starslayer]

Im not sure I see the issue here? Your complaining that fortify 5 is nothing compared to a bulletproof vest, but the kevlar in a bulletproof vest does not exist in a vaccume.

Have a suit of chainmail worked in dragons fire and forged from essential carbon and essential iron worked together (4x DR/HP MINIMUM) lightened, and enchanted with well even nothing at that point will put the kevlar vest to shame: More DR, lighter weight, more breathable.

Also why put fortify 5 on the armor when for a mere 1400 energy you can have an always on once turned on deflect missiles (400 for deflect missiles, 1000 for power 2), in which case the wearer of the armor CANNOT BE SHOT; period. <Exception depleted necromium, meteoric or other mana canceling effect).

Why worry that a fireball is a slow firing weak attack compared to an assault rifle when the missile immune wizard wearing chainmail that puts modern combat armor to shame can cast hawk flight and close to meele range where spells like burning death, deathtouch, rotting death, and even evisceration make any amount of armor irrelevant.

Further invisibility illusions and creations are all cheap <relatively> in cost compared to there there effectiveness.

I honestly think that technology is doomed if it must fight at even outnumbering 100:1 to 4e mages with good spell lists.

Remember when portraying the fight between magic and technology you should not try to get them on equal grounds, then you matters well just give both sides guns but say 'one of the gun types is MAGIC!' get the fight to be about how they are different. Technology (since anyone can pick up a gun) is more prevalent then magic which only gifts a few, and has much more raw damaging ability- but mages have scary effect shaping powers; like deflecting missiles (thus requiring the use of 'near enough' explosives which will do pitiful poor damage to essential steel chain-mail). However large enough numbers overcome the mages fatigue reserves, making a true face to face fight unwise to the mage (if only due to being outnumbered). Generals however have to fear as skull spirits, demons, and created warrior/assassins stalk them in the night; and every beautiful girl/boy they encounter could be another magical plant. Mages have to struggle against the crushing pervasiveness of technology, the sheer numbers making however much individual power they command seem nothing more then a drop in a bucket.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

I would suggest the mechanism known as "GM Fiat." Why not just arbitrarily declare that spells like Might, Haste, Puissance, Armor, etc are ten or twenty times as good in this setting if you want the wizards to match or totally curbstomp the conventional high tech military?

While doable, this sort of thing impedes the portability of further solutions and rulings; as fiats accumulate, the more idiosyncratic the house rules become, and the less well existing balance and playability systems work, not to mention the more foreign form the experience of the cadre of forum goers and other people of whom you might ask advice.

[Philomath]

Starslayer has the right of it. You wouldn't go toe-to-toe with Mike Tyson would you? Likewise your mage shouldn't be expected to play by the rules set up by his opponent. The major problem I've seen with mages seeming weak has been due to low energy reserves (sometimes only FP!) and lack of imagination.

I don't know if you have Thaumatology or not. It goes a long way toward eliminating the low energy reserves problem. Look at Paut (STx60 energy per day), and Inanimate Sacrifices (essentially unlimited extra energy, as long as the cash lasts). Even without Thaumatology, get a Powerstone via Signature Gear. Get a Familiar with its own Energy Reserve and Lend Energy. Get a Power Item (think Staff or Powerstone built using Powers -- ER w/Abilities Only, Breakable, SM-x, Can't be Repaired, Can be Stolen, etc.) Try to get Mana Enhancer (Granted By Familiar, Pact, maybe Switchable).

With the above methods a given mage may have potentially hundreds of points of energy to play around with in a given day (or even in any given hour). With that kind of power a mage is easily a direct threat to any number of mundanes and an indirect threat to anything his ambition may aim at.

Lack of imagination might be lack of experience with the magic system (Invisibility, Mindlessness, and Enthrall! And don't forget your Golem power-armor!). There are quite a few threads with nasty spell combos and they all get nastier with a couple hundred mana points to throw around.

[Anders]

Or you could go with magic is powers and let the players buy DR, ST, etc.