Supercharging Magic for ST and DR

[cosmicfish]

I would like to run a campaign which highlights a conflict between magic and high technology, and for narrative reasons I would like to be able to provide magic-wielding PC's and NPC's the ability to stand up to technologically burnished ST and DR. The problem is that both are severely limited, and there does not seem to be any mechanism for boosting them. For example, Fortify allows a maximum DR of +5... which is next to useless in a high-tech campaign. I want this to be a cinematic campaign, where the main characters significantly overmatch "common" foes - who in this case would reasonably have kevlar and guns. In a similar previous campaign (3rd ed) the magic-users where grossly outmatched in combat. Two questions for the forum:

1) How do enchantments on mutliple items add for a given player? If a player's sword, glove, and belt each offered Might +5, would their strength then be boosted by +15? Could a single item be constructed with "subitems" each of which was enchanted individually but with additive effects? For example, one style of armor is constructed from laminated linen - is there anything preventing anyone from enchanting several pieces of linen with Fortify, and then laminating them together? How do you then address the obvious abuse - buying a whole bunch of +1 Fortify enchantments for far far less than a single +5?

2) Aside from the multiple enchantments issue, what mechanism would anyone suggest for allowing certain spells to go above the listed limits? I would like a magic sword to be a big deal, but a sword with Puissance +5 is just not that much better than the original and far far cheaper mundane sword.

[lexington]

The best way to cheaply make magic users more powerful in combat is to let them buy Imbuements. You can probably extrapolate the costs of more powerful enchantments from the ones listed.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by lexington

The best way to cheaply make magic users more powerful in combat is to let them buy Imbuements. You can probably extrapolate the costs of more powerful enchantments from the ones listed.

Not familiar with Imbuements... where are they discussed? I am relatively new to 4th ed.

[Dustin]

1) I wouldn't go this route, that way lies madness: 10 rings, each with Might +1; 20 layers of fine silk with +1 Fortify, etc. Only the highest enchantment of a kind should count.

2) You could mutate the "Magery and Effect" rule from Magic p.9 for enchantments, such that the +5 limit was for each level of Magery - Magery 3 allows enchantments of up to +15, for example. This would have significant effects on the game world, and I wouldn't allow it for certain effects (Accuracy), but might be sufficient to help magic keep up with Tech.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Dustin

1) I wouldn't go this route, that way lies madness: 10 rings, each with Might +1; 20 layers of fine silk with +1 Fortify, etc. Only the highest enchantment of a kind should count.

2) You could mutate the "Magery and Effect" rule from Magic p.9 for enchantments, such that the +5 limit was for each level of Magery - Magery 3 allows enchantments of up to +15, for example. This would have significant effects on the game world, and I wouldn't allow it for certain effects (Accuracy), but might be sufficient to help magic keep up with Tech.

1) This was my concern as well... I was specifically thinking of a charm bracelet - give each charm Might +1, Dexterity +1, etc - become unbeatable for one cheap bracelet.

2) That seems fine - I have no problem allowing elevated Magery levels and was already planning on allowing this rule - but for enchantments how do you address the power needs? Enchantment cost is distinctly nonlinear, whereas spell costs are usualy linear.

Oh, and...

1.5) In general, how do you accommodate multiple items offering bonuses? That occasionally happens with the more common enchantments like Fortify, even without going to extremes. If Fortify +1 only costs $100, why not Fortify your undershirt, your shirt, your jacket, etc...

[lexington]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

Not familiar with Imbuements... where are they discussed? I am relatively new to 4th ed.

The first Power Ups book adds them as an option. They let people apply certain effects to weapons at will (by paying FP and making a skill roll). If enchantment is going to be too costly or unwieldy giving magic users access to Imbue (Magical -10%) and a few skills might help to close the gap.

An option that doesn't require any extra books would be to declare that magic can cheaply and reliably be used to produce Fine or Very Fine quality equipment. PCs don't need those spells so you can leave it as background flavor. This will have the effect of reducing the gap slightly on the whole but it probably won't aid the PCs much.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

1) How do enchantments on mutliple items add for a given player? If a player's sword, glove, and belt each offered Might +5, would their strength then be boosted by +15?

Only the largest, single bonus is has effect at one time; they are not cumulative.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

2) Aside from the multiple enchantments issue, what mechanism would anyone suggest for allowing certain spells to go above the listed limits? I would like a magic sword to be a big deal, but a sword with Puissance +5 is just not that much better than the original and far far cheaper mundane sword.

Adjustable Spells (Thaumatology, p. 39) let you modify spells with enhancements for additional energy and/or penalties, so as to get a Stone Missile with an armor divisor or a very high RoF, or that homes on the target.

[Dustin]

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

2) That seems fine - I have no problem allowing elevated Magery levels and was already planning on allowing this rule - but for enchantments how do you address the power needs? Enchantment cost is distinctly nonlinear, whereas spell costs are usualy linear.

Allow slow & sure enchantment to spend [Magery] points per day to speed it up? I've been considering that as a house rule even for low-tech games.

Originally Posted by cosmicfish

1.5) In general, how do you accommodate multiple items offering bonuses? That occasionally happens with the more common enchantments like Fortify, even without going to extremes. If Fortify +1 only costs $100, why not Fortify your undershirt, your shirt, your jacket, etc...

Only the highest enchantment of a kind counts. Although I do allow Fortify +1 to greatly increase the mundane durability of a cloth item - helps keep those court robes looking sparkly new! Doesn't stack the armor values, though.

[Refplace]

Lots of ways to make magic more competitive with tech.
Main thing to think about first IMHO is the point cost of spells or magic vs. gettng and using tech.
as for competiviness.
Versatility, bypassing DR in many ways and variety of attacks.
defenses, stealth, info gathering.
using higher levels of magery to toss higher die attacks.
temporary enhancements, maneuvers
Magic as Powers
Ritual magic, realm magic, other varieties, including Umana.

[cosmicfish]

Originally Posted by Dustin

Allow slow & sure enchantment to spend [Magery] points per day to speed it up? I've been considering that as a house rule even for low-tech games.

That speeds it up, but how much should it cost? If someone with Magery 3 is allowed to layer 3 Fortify spells, then they can layer three +1 spells more cheaply than a single +3 spell. Alternately, if someone with Magery 3 is able to produce Fortify +15... how much does it cost?? Taking levels 3-5 as a progression, it would cost 800 million FP!!

Originally Posted by Dustin

Only the highest enchantment of a kind counts. Although I do allow Fortify +1 to greatly increase the mundane durability of a cloth item - helps keep those court robes looking sparkly new! Doesn't stack the armor values, though.

My earlier rule had been that the nth item (in order of power) would contribute 1/n of it's individual power - so, for example, when attacked from behind the Archmage of the West would get +5 DR out of his robe, +3 DR out of his Fortify +5 DR cloak (+5/2, rounded), and +1 DR out of his Fortify +3 shirt (+3/3), for a total of +9 DR. That had worked well at the time, but is inaccessible for the typical PC.