Rebuilding Alchemy from scratch!..

[Gatling Boy]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

My biggest complaint about the Alchemy system is that it is rather dull for anyone to be an Alchemist.

That's why the vast majority of PC alchemists I've encountered focus almost exclusively on the cheapest, quickest ones. Can they make resurrection elixirs? Not usually. But they can brew up Thanatos and healing elixirs by the gallon.

I actually had a character in my group who would brew Thanatos almost 24/7 when he wasn't actively adventuring, then dish it out into mason jars with a soup ladle before major battles. Obviously, we ignored the fact that unguents are hard to ladle into jars for extra style points -- the image of the town militia lining up with their jars so this guy could give them each a scoop from his Stew Pot o' Thanatos was always good for a giggle. Although now that I think about it, an ice cream scoop would work for unguent, and would probably be even funnier.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Gatling Boy

There's no such thing as magic that's "balanced in any reasonable way." Magic is, by definition, something for nothing. You twiddle your fingers, say a few magic words, and get an effect way out of proportion to the effort being put into it.

???

One can certainly balance magic from a game perspective. That is at the heart of GURPS' character point system. Sure you can be a 150 point magic user, but you are going to have to "balance" with the 150 point fighter.

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Gatling Boy

There's no such thing as magic that's "balanced in any reasonable way." Magic is, by definition, something for nothing. You twiddle your fingers, say a few magic words, and get an effect way out of proportion to the effort being put into it.

You can say the same thing about advanced technology. Certainly I know I get an effect way out of proportion to the effort I put into pressing down on the accelerator pedal in my car. And yes, the idea of basing alchemy on the wonderdrug system in Basic is an interesting idea although it wouldn't exactly cover a resurrection pill.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

My biggest complaint about the Alchemy system is that it is rather dull for anyone to be an Alchemist.

*snip*

I agree with this. A PC who wants to be a alchemist pretty much has to understand that it is something that he or she will be doing almost exclusively in the down time between adventures. And if the PC has such skills, adventuring takes away time for brewing and this does not have a strong reason to want to go out adventuring. Sure the alchemist might need special ingredients, but to me is more likely to hire an adventurer than to go himself for most items.

That does not mean I want the alchemy rules changed though. I don't want it to be quick and dirty like spell casting. It is just something players have to live with.

[AmesJainchill]

Originally Posted by Mgellis

(Now, there is one interesting loophole. An alchemist who has Quick Gadgeteer is able to brew elixers at nightmarish speed. He can whip up a Resurrection elixer in about three hours (!) instead of the 50 weeks it normally takes. But this is a special case.)

Why, hello Miracle Max, how are you today?

[Captain-Captain]

I think most elixirs are priced on the basis of Labor plus Ingredients modified by demand. Certain elixirs are highly desireable and are piced hire accordingly.

What inhibits players from playing PC Alchemists is the amount of TIME they have to spend in game time to make a potion or powder.

When D&D was redone, one of the smart moves made was to allow PCs who wanted to make magic items do so very quickly. PCs thus were willing to take Alchemy or Enchanting Feats because it didn't take them out of the game for any serious length of time.

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

I think most elixirs are priced on the basis of Labor plus Ingredients modified by demand. Certain elixirs are highly desireable and are piced hire accordingly.

What inhibits players from playing PC Alchemists is the amount of TIME they have to spend in game time to make a potion or powder.

When D&D was redone, one of the smart moves made was to allow PCs who wanted to make magic items do so very quickly. PCs thus were willing to take Alchemy or Enchanting Feats because it didn't take them out of the game for any serious length of time.

On one level, I can understand why GURPS does not do this (except for special cases like Quick Gadgeteer). Alchemists and enchanters, if they are not carefully managed, can break a campaign by giving player characters easy access to far too many powerful devices, elixers, etc. At the same time, it is a little frustrating to have a great idea for a magic item, etc., and find out...yes, you can make that...in about five years.

Mark

[Gatling Boy]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

You can say the same thing about advanced technology. Certainly I know I get an effect way out of proportion to the effort I put into pressing down on the accelerator pedal in my car. And yes, the idea of basing alchemy on the wonderdrug system in Basic is an interesting idea although it wouldn't exactly cover a resurrection pill.

Except that real physics comes into effect in modern technology. There is no sudden appearance of energy. In the case of the car, the fuel is burned to make this energy. In magic, the only requirement is the finger wiggle and sudden effect.

It all comes down to the basic observation of economics -- "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch." With magic, the whole point is that the lunch is indeed free.

[Ed the Coastie]

(I'm not exactly sure why I get myself into these conversations, but here goes...)

Magic is not something for nothing. Many role-playing games (including GURPS) assume the existance of an intangible medium that a knowledgable person is capable of manipulating through force of will -- and, in many cases, some ritualistic elements -- in order to produce a tangible effect. The fact that this intangible medium has not been scientifically proven to exist in the real world in no way invalidates its existance in the game. The game rules provide a way of simulating the manipulation of this intangible medium.

In the eyes of the casual observer, the mage making things happen simply by wiggling his fingers may indeed appear to be capable of doing "something for nothing". But it could be that the casual observer does not fully comprehend what is happening, any more than a typical member of Charlemagne's court would understand how a radio works.

As far as the alchemy rules being "broken" and needing to be "fixed"...that only holds true it the RAW present a problem for the individual campaign. They haven't been a problem for my games, so I have been content to leave well enough alone.

[Tsuru-Sennin]

Originally Posted by Gatling Boy

Except that real physics comes into effect in modern technology. There is no sudden appearance of energy. In the case of the car, the fuel is burned to make this energy. In magic, the only requirement is the finger wiggle and sudden effect.

It all comes down to the basic observation of economics -- "There's No Such Thing As A Free Lunch." With magic, the whole point is that the lunch is indeed free.

Except almost all GURPS spells cost fatique, so, not so much of a free lunch, eh? Also critical failures can be very deadly.