[Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour

[Polydamas]

If you are interested in real-world ways to defeat plate armour in hand-to-hand combat, check out Bob Charrette's Fiore dei Liberi's Armizare and ... I don't know? Will McLean's blog and the keywords Daniel Jacquet or WMAW on YouTube? How high-tech materials and inhuman strength would affect that is a hard question!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

If you are interested in real-world ways to defeat plate armour in hand-to-hand combat, check out Bob Charrette's Fiore dei Liberi's Armizare and ... I don't know? Will McLean's blog and the keywords Daniel Jacquet or WMAW on YouTube?

I'm reading Will McLean's blog and I find it fascinating. Useful for my fantasy campaign, as well, where one PC is a knight who fights in tourneys and performs various feats of arms when he is not slaying dragons, questing for ancient relics, wrestling fearsome demons and rescuing fair maidens.

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think he's ever inquired about the marital status or sexual experience of any rescuee. I'm not certain about it myself, I don't think it's the usual state, but I suppose the reincarnated ancient dragon in a young girl's body might count.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

How high-tech materials and inhuman strength would affect that is a hard question!

I suppose I'll use standard GURPS rules. The damage caused by a ST 20 person might be entirely off for a normal human, but evidently the supersoldier treatment also makes far more explosive power possible for the subject.

I suppose it will be important what exactly is armouring the weak points. Where there is no plate, like the inside of joints, I suppose there will be ballistic fabric. I'm having trouble determining whether it's worthwhile to add mail to that or not, as the GURPS stats for Ballistic Polymer are quite favourable and even the DR against impaling attacks seems good enough to stop most of them even without specific 'anti-stab' measures.

That's something that I wish had been addressed specifically in the 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' article in Pyramid #3/85, how to use the design system to construct stab-proof body armour and dual-threat vests. It probably ought to impact weight and cost, but I don't know if it is best to do it as two layers of different materials or if it should be a modifier to flexible armour materials.

I think that at least ordinary kevlar, without specific countermeasures in place, might even have less protection than the rules suggest against narrow, sharp impaling penetrators. Certainly it seems that with an ice pick doing thr-1 imp, an ordinary person can penetrate quite a bit of kevlar without any real effort, which suggests that 1d-3 imp will tend to penetrate the DR of several layers of kevlar.

Perhaps it might be valid to say that ballistic vests that are not specifically rated for stab or spike protection have half (the reduced) DR against such threats. That would put all practical vests and other body armour at DR 1-2 against such threats, unless they are specifically made as dual-threat armour.

Unfortunately, all data I'm familiar with for the protective value of ballistic fibers against different threats uses the more widely available para-aramid materials, like kevlar. I've not seen Dyneema or Spectra (example 'Ballistic Polymer' armour materials) subjected to either the enthusiastic experimentation of Internet amateurs or tested by UK testing bodies for police for stab and spike protection. So I don't know if it's realistic that NIJ Level IIIA ballistic armour made from it also offers more-or-less perfect stab and spike protection.

Using GURPS Technical Grappling, spending CPs on damage with 'Grab and Smash', especially if using a knife, can enable a skilled combatant with human-scale ST to penetrate pretty much any armour DR. As this can represent forcing the knife through weak points while holding the foe in a grappling hold, I don't have a problem with that.

The DR 4-5 that typical thicknesses of 'Ballistic Polymer' will grant against impaling attacks is probably enough against most thrusts from human enemies. It can be penerated by, for example, a PC supersoldier with ST 14, as well as skill 20 in Knife and Wrestling, especially if a thrust is delivered, say, to the elbow joint after establishing an Arm Lock and the CPs are spent to affect damage. And the ST 20 PC can probably penetrate it pretty reliably, assuming a suitable weapon, though she is more likely to use an RCB Peacekeeper collapsible baton to swing, which is not exactly an armour-piercing attack (though it does 3d+2 cr).

Voiders or gussets made of hardened steel mail over the ballistic fabric at any armour weak points would obviously serve to make even quite powerful attacks that hit these weak areas non-threatening. DR 9-10 against impaling attacks, DR 7-8 against crushing seems likely to be enough to protect from nearly any conceivable threat. And as the protection against piercing attacks would be DR 14-17, not even sticking a pistol into a weak point and firing until it is empty would be guaranteed to harm Vargas any.

The weight of such added mail protection would seem likely to be almost inconsequential on the scale of the total armour weight, but would it be awkward or uncomfortable in any way, compared to just wearing the underlayer of fairly thin ballistic fabric?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

....

Using GURPS Technical Grappling, spending CPs on damage with 'Grab and Smash', especially if using a knife, can enable a skilled combatant with human-scale ST to penetrate pretty much any armour DR. As this can represent forcing the knife through weak points while holding the foe in a grappling hold, I don't have a problem with that.

The DR 4-5 that typical thicknesses of 'Ballistic Polymer' will grant against impaling attacks is probably enough against most thrusts from human enemies. It can be penerated by, for example, a PC supersoldier with ST 14, as well as skill 20 in Knife and Wrestling, especially if a thrust is delivered, say, to the elbow joint after establishing an Arm Lock and the CPs are spent to affect damage. And the ST 20 PC can probably penetrate it pretty reliably, assuming a suitable weapon, though she is more likely to use an RCB Peacekeeper collapsible baton to swing, which is not exactly an armour-piercing attack (though it does 3d+2 cr).

Voiders or gussets made of hardened steel mail over the ballistic fabric at any armour weak points would obviously serve to make even quite powerful attacks that hit these weak areas non-threatening. DR 9-10 against impaling attacks, DR 7-8 against crushing seems likely to be enough to protect from nearly any conceivable threat. And as the protection against piercing attacks would be DR 14-17, not even sticking a pistol into a weak point and firing until it is empty would be guaranteed to harm Vargas any.

The weight of such added mail protection would seem likely to be almost inconsequential on the scale of the total armour weight, but would it be awkward or uncomfortable in any way, compared to just wearing the underlayer of fairly thin ballistic fabric?

What type is the visor?

Maybe you could have your PC's wrestle him to the ground and try and get enough CP on him to make a serious threat of getting a dagger through his eye slits?

What's the locking mechanism for his visor (or helmet come to that). Again wrestling him and tying to pin him with enough CP to try and lift the visor or remove the helmet might make an interesting fight. Especially if you also trying to take him alive!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

What type is the visor?

Well, I don't rightly know.

I suspect that Vargas would primarily want something that looked cool and like his mental image of Gothic knightly armour, but was well aware of the need for practicality. The chief armourer, Vyacheslav Lunov, would probably want something he considered the Platonic ideal of traditional armour design, so if there is any specific historical visor design that is both aesthetically pleasing and objectively good design from an ergonomic and engineering point of view, that would probably end up being chosen.

Vargas needs to be able to lift his visor to prevent heatstroke, improve situational awareness and achieve cheek weld with modern weapons. At the same time, the visor probably needs to be at least 1/8" (ca 3mm) and maybe almost 1/4" (ca 6mm) thick steel, to be really protective against the kind of threats it might face.

Vargas would not even try to have the armour designed to offer 100% protection from even the most skilled tactical shooters theoretically possible in the world, but would accept adequate coverage of areas likely to be hit in combat with ordinary trained men, such as military veterans fighting on behalf of other cartels, special police units or Mexican marines.

From a Tactics/TL8 perspective, any significant penalty to his situational awareness is probably more dangerous than a slightly greater chance of a hit to an unprotected area of the face, which is extremely unlikely to happen by chance and beyond the skill of any normal person to aim for during most foreseeable combat situations.

It may well be that in any situation where he expects to face rifle fire, he'll fight without a visor, if there is no plausible alternative that would give at least DR 20 without seriously compromising his ability to fight back using Soldier and Tactics at TL8.

It depends on how thick one can make a visor that is easily opened and closed, as well as whether there exist designs for historical head armour that do not give massive penalties to Vision and Hearing.

If anyone has suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them. Maybe a link to a picture of a historical helmet or a replica that looks sufficiently authentic that they think ought to give a good compromise between coverage with armour good enough to protect from common rifle rounds and the ability to retain situational awareness.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Maybe you could have your PC's wrestle him to the ground and try and get enough CP on him to make a serious threat of getting a dagger through his eye slits?

I'm officially the Assistant GM for Real-World Research and Rules, so I'm playing a PC as well. And it would be very much in character for that PC to sweep Vargas down, pin him and either hammer a combat knife through an eye slit or place the barrel of a Browning pistol next to the eye and empty it into Vargas' brain.

Aside from the natural dislike all heroic PCs have for NPCs walking around with metaphorical huge, blinking neon signs saying 'Big Bad!' and 'Supervillain!', Vargas killed a friend of his. And was primarily responsible for a girl my PC cared deeply about being consigned to a horrific stay in an Asylum for the Criminally Insane for almost two decades.

As if these weren't motivations enough, that girl is still obsessed with Vargas, refuses resolutely to accept the evidence that he is an objectively terrible person who is unlikely to care one whit for her and apparently wants to run away to live with him.

The last awful person and supervillain who simultaneously constituted a threat to this girl and a twisted version of a 'romantic rival' for her, not-so-coincidentally died of cerebral hemorraghing, which in turn was caused by the application of massive damage to the Skull using the Grab and Smash rules in conjunction with spending CPs from Technical Grappling.

Frame it as protecting society, righteous retribution or rescuing the girl, it all leads to the conclusion that killing Vargas would be a mitzvah. Too bad that our mission is to convince him to come with us peaceful, we have no authority or resources to do anything if he refuses and my PC promised the girl that he wouldn't interfere if she genuinely chose to live with Vargas.

My character's best hope is that Vargas will be unable to simply hear out the offer that the characters are instructed to make to him and then refuse politely, but will instead try to kidnap or kill them. And, of course, that this attempt is not successful and that we are able to turn the tables on him.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

What's the locking mechanism for his visor (or helmet come to that).

Again, no idea.

What should it be?

A team including a TL8 armourer who makes TL4 armour as an artistic passion, a mechanical engineer, a machinist-fabricator and some metallurgy grad students are trying to make an idealised plate harness from modern materials, something that looks at least as 'Knight-like' as something that might pass in a good Hollywood movie, but provides protection from rifle rounds over at least as much of the body as a typical plate carrier does and protection from knives, fragments and hopefully pistol rounds over the entire body.

Basically, what is the 'best' way to do it, while retaining a historical-esque 'Black Knight' aesthetic?

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Again wrestling him and tying to pin him with enough CP to try and lift the visor or remove the helmet might make an interesting fight. Especially if you also trying to take him alive!

As it is by no means certain that the other PCs will agree to kill Vargas, this might well end up happening.

One PC thinks he's Vargas' son, so that might be interesting. Maybe we should establish a pool on whether he'll want to kill the man who left his pregnant mother before he was born, join him to rule Mexico's underworld, or do something entirely unexpected, when they finally do meet. My theory is that he'll try to get Vargas to play catch with him.

[Tomsdad]

Sorry I keep forgetting your not the GM on this one!


OK I'm not an expert on Visor locking mechanisms so hopefully someone more qualified will come along. My understanding in that while they existed they were not ubiquitous on all visors and even when they were there they were not that secure, being things like catches or spring pins (simply because you might well want to raise and lower your visor at will on the battle field with your gauntlets on).


So even if there is one it's probably not that complex or fiddly a mechanism

The question remains how to model someone doing this against the wishes of the wearer in GURPS.


I'd probably make this an attack requiring a pre-existing grapple and a free hand at say a -8 penalty to lift the visor that wasn't secured in anyway, and maybe a -10 to free a simple catch, followed by an attack to lift the visor.

I'd allow CP to be spent to lower the difficulty, and referred CP and direct CP on the head would count as well.

When it comes to the actual helmet fastening that I think might be less simple, involving straps, catches (and I what to say even simple key/lock systems may have occurred at some points) etc

Of course that's if he's gone with a completely historical reproduction, TL8 could allow much smaller locks and security if he really wanted.

As to how think you can make visors, honest I think it weigh that the really the limiting factor here, obviously connections will have to be more robust to accommodate heavier visors, but it not like we;re talking about 10mm of steel or anything silly like that. and like most of the plate you have it thicker where it need s to eb and thiner where it can get away with it.

The thing is you using steels here that are better performing than than historial ones so even if your getter better DR you might not be dealing with significantly thicker material so you might not have to worry about the ergonomic limitations here..

Similar with voiders on gaps. We don't really get rules for building voiders in LT (and the Pyramid articles don't really go into them at all). Personally I'd take fine mail as a base line and adjust for material stats via the pyramid articles. Plate versions of voiders existed (not sure of they were called voiders but they performed the same function). I'd take the view that given really good carfenenstshiop you coufl have them


As to designs that allow for a better vision etc. TBH there was huge range of visor/ face cover, helmet styles as this was constant trade off I'm not sure where they all fit into GURPS. I'd look at Dan Howard's Loadouts: Low tech armour for a guideline on the reality of it in GURPS terms

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Sorry I keep forgetting your not the GM on this one!

No worries. The GM reads the threads on his campaign and will decide if we even meet Vargas in armour, and if we do, what kind of design it is.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

OK I'm not an expert on Visor locking mechanisms so hopefully someone more qualified will come along. My understanding in that while they existed they were not ubiquitous on all visors and even when they were there they were not that secure, being things like catches or spring pins (simply because you might well want to raise and lower your visor at will on the battle field with your gauntlets on).

So even if there is one it's probably not that complex or fiddly a mechanism

Vargas is going to be a lot more concerned with the need to raise and lower his visor quickly than the possibility that someone might overpower him physically and remove it against his will. After all, he's a big, bad supersoldier who can shatter a man's shinbone with one kick and punch through a brick wall.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The question remains how to model someone doing this against the wishes of the wearer in GURPS.

I'd probably make this an attack requiring a pre-existing grapple and a free hand at say a -8 penalty to lift the visor that wasn't secured in anyway, and maybe a -10 to free a simple catch, followed by an attack to lift the visor.

I'd allow CP to be spent to lower the difficulty, and referred CP and direct CP on the head would count as well.

Sounds about right.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

When it comes to the actual helmet fastening that I think might be less simple, involving straps, catches (and I what to say even simple key/lock systems may have occurred at some points) etc

Of course that's if he's gone with a completely historical reproduction, TL8 could allow much smaller locks and security if he really wanted.

It won't need to be completely historical, as long as it looks right to him from the outside.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

As to how think you can make visors, honest I think it weigh that the really the limiting factor here, obviously connections will have to be more robust to accommodate heavier visors, but it not like we;re talking about 10mm of steel or anything silly like that. and like most of the plate you have it thicker where it need s to eb and thiner where it can get away with it.

The thing is you using steels here that are better performing than than historial ones so even if your getter better DR you might not be dealing with significantly thicker material so you might not have to worry about the ergonomic limitations here..

Well, if it's not going to interfere with his vision or hearing due to bulk, it would need to be around 6.6 mm thick.

DR 20 is the mininum for the visor to be worth wearing in a firefight (stops typical AK and AR-15 fire) and DR 25+ would be preferable, as H&K G3 rifles in 7.62x51mm are common in Mexico.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Similar with voiders on gaps. We don't really get rules for building voiders in LT (and the Pyramid articles don't really go into them at all). Personally I'd take fine mail as a base line and adjust for material stats via the pyramid articles. Plate versions of voiders existed (not sure of they were called voiders but they performed the same function). I'd take the view that given really good carfenenstshiop you coufl have them

I'll have to check what the coverage percentages of the inside of the knees, elbows and armpits are in 'CEAD'. I don't expect it will add a lot of weight to add some Hardened Steel Fine Mail voiders to the arming garments.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

As to designs that allow for a better vision etc. TBH there was huge range of visor/ face cover, helmet styles as this was constant trade off I'm not sure where they all fit into GURPS. I'd look at Dan Howard's Loadouts: Low tech armour for a guideline on the reality of it in GURPS terms

Thanks. I'll take a look and try to figure it out. Anyone who knows about helmets should feel free to contribute ideas.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm having trouble determining whether it's worthwhile to add mail to that or not

It certainly isn't if bullets are expected to be an issue, as adding small pieces of twisted metal wire to a bullet wound isn't anyone's idea of helpful.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

It certainly isn't if bullets are expected to be an issue, as adding small pieces of twisted metal wire to a bullet wound isn't anyone's idea of helpful.

Well, the odds of a bullet hitting him behind the knee or inside the elbow are fairly low and in any case, if it's a round the ballistic polymer doesn't stop, I doubt the mail would help much.

Mail voiders would probably be meant to stop a determined man with a knife from pushing through an armour gap. I'm just not sure how well ballistic polymer truly protects against a narrow, sharp edged penetrators.

I've seen evidence* that seems pretty compelling that a lot of early TL8 kevlar weaves used in 'bulletproof' vests are even worse against very narrow, sharp penetrators than their split DR would indicate. In game terms, a lot more impaling weapons count as AP, with AD(2), against common kevlar weaves than other types of armour.

I don't know if late TL8 body armour fixes this problem and is multi-threat by default, as the 'CEAD' stats for 'Ballistic Polymer' suggest.

Will a high quality, custom-tailored underlayer made from really thin, but still NIJ Level II or Level IIA, flexible advanced fabric like Dyneema or Spectra, really give a minimum of DR 4 against all threats?

And does NIJ Level IIIA armour from the same material automatically have DR 5 against daggers, ice picks or razor-sharp fighting knives?

Because if that's a realistic stat and not a simplification to avoid having a more complex split DR or having to address different ratings for stab-, spike- and bullet-protection, then I doubt mail would be necessary. He could just have the underlayerd reinforced with an extra layer of 'Ballistic Polymer' at the weak points or gaps in the plate harness.

*Mostly Internet enthusiastics playing with knives, spears, icepicks or arrows, and some kevlar, but there exist more boring, if probably more accurate, testing literature for UK police on stab and spike protection.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Well, Low Tech does a good job of laying out the weak spots in plate armour with Chinks in Armour, and I think I gave a decent overview of the parts which might plausibly be thick enough to make rifle rounds take notice. (Chest Front, Skull Front, maybe some other small areas close to the centre of mass). I have seen a secondhand report that the Avant armour in Glasgow (the one they usually use for diagrams of the parts of European plate armour) is 2 x 4 mm thick over the centre of the chest (although not over the whole Chest), and that weighs 57 pounds without some small pieces.

Yeah, back of the envelope it looks like being willing to wear 125 lbs. of advanced steel alloy armour actually translates into quite good protection, even from rifle fire (especially with a ballistic polymer underlayer).

Even with RHA steel armour, he could get the chest and skull area more or less proof from the rounds most likely to be threats. With flash bainite armour that is about 50% better, he'll be able to protect almost all of his body from pistol fire, fragments and melee weapons, and protect most of the really important areas from rifle fire.

The limbs may be vulnerable to very high velocity assault rifle rounds, as well as any really powerful caliber (.308 and upward), but short-barrelled carbine rounds might be stopped and, in any event, the odds are pretty good that AK and AR-15 rounds that ought to cause incapacitating and life-threatening injury on any hit might be downgraded to unpleasant sources of spalling and some risk of injury from fragments penetrating the underlayer.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Because I know so little about modern tactical combat, and am not an expert on the ballistics of armour or bullet-resistant armour, I tried to give back-of-the-envelope estimates and not spoil them by giving too many details. I would try to get the overall weight right, and the resistance to bullets of the thick parts, the thin parts, and the double-layered-thick parts in the right ballpark, and not try to fuss about whether the greaves are a bit heavier or lighter than the upper arms, because GURPS can't hope to represent all the factors that go into designing real armour.

The most important small detail is probably 'What weak points can be spotted with an Observation or Per check, how hard are they to hit and what DR does he have there?'

It would be enormously narratively satisfying if a combat encounter could be ended with a crippling injury to the knee, elbow or the arm pit, inflicted either with a firearm from CQB distances or with a fighting knife in a grappling match.

I personally default to a very simulationist mindset, but as Assistant GM, my job is basically to find real-world reasons that are plausible enough to satify my tastes to underpin the Comics and Supers genre tropes that the actual GM wants. So, I know that the supervillain with personal connections to a lot of backstories actually surviving a dramatic confrontation with the PCs is vital, but if it comes to violence, this is hard to do without mad handwaving and severe plausibility failure.

Having PCs and people important to the PCs be resolutely opposed to killing Vargas helps, but in order for there to be any possibility of deciding to take him alive, he really needs to have the ability to survive being shot multiple times by a character who wants him dead and tends to hit what he aims at. On a second-by-second time frame, no one is going to make a reasoned argument faster than someone with effective skill 28+ can place six bullets in the cerebellum of a clear threat.

So, ironically, I'll have done my job as Assistant GM well if I can come up with armour that someone with Vargas' enthuisiasms, skills, capabilities and connections could/would actually have that will prevent me, when I've changed hats to player, from having my PC kill Vargas as soon as he presents a legitimate threat, i.e. in the second he decides to attack us or threaten our life in a credible way.

Yes, there is a risk that doing my job too well will mean that Vargas, instead, kills us, the PCs. After all, he's an inhuman supersoldier with Special Forces training and an organisation of professional killers trained better than many actual militaries. That's one of these things we'll just call the players' problem. I can't be worrying about their problems now, that'd be a conflict of interest.

From this perspective, armour gaps where there is nothing but the underlayer of ballistic polymer, with maybe DR 9/4, would be pretty much ideal. That's enough DR to make it hard for my PC to kill Vargas even if he manages to shoot him, but also makes it theoretically possible to stop Vargas by shooting him multiple time in an area where the plates do not protect or to use a knife to penetrate the flexible underlayer.

If there are mail voiders over the ballistic polymer, the DR becomes something like DR 14/9. That pretty much rules out using a melee weapon, but still makes it possible to disable Vargas by firing several rifle rounds into his armpit, knee or elbow, which he might survive, but have cool scars, a limp or a painfully stiff arm, directly tracable to PC-action, which would obviously increase his Supervillain value enormously.

Unfortunately, the odds are that the best target will turn out to be the eye slit or otherwise somehow through the visor. This is good for my PC, as he is quite capable of putting a controlled pair of 9mm rounds through each eye from fifty feet away, but that tends not to be the sort of injury that leads to merely a temporary victory over a personal nemesis who survives to have a long and colourful career.

Maybe Vargas wears a sealed helmet that sort of looks like a historical one, but has ballistic glass over the areas that would otherwise be uncovered. How might that work?

It would probably play havoc with his situational awareness, as his hearing would be pretty much worthless and his field of vision seems likely to be limited too, not to mention that this sort of thing probably gets hot as hell even in cold weather. But it might be a special purpose helmet, to be worn only for short perpiods when he's expecting sniper fire.

Also, it would allow him to have a rebreather inside the helmet and sound like Darth Vader, so there is that. Not sure if the GM would go for it, but it sure has my vote.

Now I want to have my PC negotiate with a flamboyant, psychopathic, darkly charismatic cartel boss wearing badass black templar armour who talks like Darth Vader's Mexican, non-union equivalent. Hefting a GPMG with an EOTech holographic weapon sight, so he doesn't need a cheek weld to get a sight picture, in case the negotiations break down. Wearing two ammo belts over his shoulders and carrying grenades on external web gear.

Shooting the grenades would be one option, but it's probably not that easy to detonate a modern grenade with gunfire. Just ruining the fuze mechanism is probably more likely than an explosion, even if you hit it.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

..

Vargas is going to be a lot more concerned with the need to raise and lower his visor quickly than the possibility that someone might overpower him physically and remove it against his will. After all, he's a big, bad supersoldier who can shatter a man's shinbone with one kick and punch through a brick wall.

True, you want an epic beat down fight, after all!

Originally Posted by Icelander

Sounds about right.

Cool, cheers

Originally Posted by Icelander

It won't need to be completely historical, as long as it looks right to him from the outside.

Well when it comes to metal helm/visor and GURPS rules for limited eye sight your talking either partial coverage on the face and keeping your visual awareness or full cover and gaining at best no peripheral vision. I don't think there's any real way round that trade off barring replacing a chunk of the metal with see through ballistic material (but hey no eye slits). This is going to interfere with the look though. Although maybe make it smoked / one way if possible to still give the visual effect of metal?.

The only question is to stop full sized rifle rounds it may have to be pretty thick, as in considerably thicker than the steel.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Well, if it's not going to interfere with his vision or hearing due to bulk, it would need to be around 6.6 mm thick.

DR 20 is the mininum for the visor to be worth wearing in a firefight (stops typical AK and AR-15 fire) and DR 25+ would be preferable, as H&K G3 rifles in 7.62x51mm are common in Mexico.

So if 6.6mm is giving DR20 your going off DR77 per inch for the steel?

(sorry this may have been stipulated in an earlier post)

Have you considered implementing some of the tailoring & fluting rules in LT? That would justify maintaining DR while reducing weight (and so possibly thickness in some areas)

(again sorry this may have been stipulated in an earlier post)

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'll have to check what the coverage percentages of the inside of the knees, elbows and armpits are in 'CEAD'. I don't expect it will add a lot of weight to add some Hardened Steel Fine Mail voiders to the arming garments.

I agree

Originally Posted by Icelander

Thanks. I'll take a look and try to figure it out. Anyone who knows about helmets should feel free to contribute ideas.

No worries