Caseless shotgun shells?

Cowd · 02-23-2007, 05:04 PM

In the far future it appears that caseless bullets will become prevalent since it is overall better than the cased versions. Is it possible to make a caseless shotgun shell? I need this for a sci-fi setting I'm working on. Thanks!

elShoggotho · 02-23-2007, 05:08 PM

Can't imagine how. You could make caseless solid shotgun slugs or certain types of special ammunition (flares, microgrenades and stuff) but how would you make caseless shot? The whole term is a contradiction in itself to me.

jindra34 · 02-23-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elShoggotho

Can't imagine how. You could make caseless solid shotgun slugs or certain types of special ammunition (flares, microgrenades and stuff) but how would you make caseless shot? The whole term is a contradiction in itself to me.

Possible everything would have to burn or be shot at the enemy, the "launch plate" would have to shatter to hit the target probably round tl10

elShoggotho · 02-23-2007, 05:19 PM

OK, you could set the shot in some fast-burning plastic. Wouldn't work that well and wear out the barrels pretty fast unless you fix them with some ultra-tech heat-resistant coating.

Kalli · 02-23-2007, 06:54 PM

Superficially it may sound unlikely but I'd think it's far from impossible.

As it is today the shot is in a cup within the shotgun shells, see here.

I'd think the greatest bother (besides all the usual caseless problems) would be affixing the cup to the propellant block. Given sufficient hardness/toughness of the propellent and the possibility to suitably shape it this shouldn't be to much of a problem.

On the other hand, this would probably be a more fragile method of doing things and with little benefits over a more conventional, cased shell.

Of course, we are talking about future/Ultra Tech stuff... I haven't kept up with development of caseless ammo but I think one of the problems with it is less survivability than with conventional brass cases.

Asok_Green · 02-23-2007, 07:05 PM

The shot could be made up of small, stacked temporary magnets which separate normally upon firing, thanks to shock demagnetization. A possible negative aspect to include or ignore at your discretion is the fact that a lot of tiny magnets lined up behave no differently than a single magnet of equal size, meaning unspent rounds might be a hazard to magnetically-sensitive electronics and such.

Lord Carnifex · 02-23-2007, 07:50 PM

Maybe instead of indivdiual pellets, you have a fragmenting case filled with a small explosive. The caseless propellent fires the fragmenting projectile that explodes shortly after clearing the barrel, spreading the fragments in a cone.

Sort of a combination of fused HE and canister rounds, on a made-possible-with-high-tech smaller scale.

Though I don't know why you'd bother, really. Just use a 20mm or smaller grenade launcher with caseless rounds instead. Aim low, so that if you miss, you catch your target in the frag radius.

nanoboy · 02-23-2007, 07:50 PM

Or, the rounds are packed into some sort of efficiently burning paper or similar material.

Or, the rounds are separate from the propellant, which is a liquid in a small tank of the shotgun.

Or, the shotgun is more like a repeating pepperbox rail gun.

aardvarknemesis · 02-23-2007, 08:34 PM

My understanding is that in a caseless rifle round the entire bullet(or most of it) is encased in propellent, which would be the same with shot. The shot would probably be stacked on top of one another.

Easterner9504 · 02-23-2007, 09:05 PM

aardvarknemesis description of caseless is correct. To use it in a shotgun just requires that it be in pre-loaded magazines. Would be smaller than current shells a big plus allowing for higher capacity.

See a magazine fed SG here.
http://www.defensereview.com/article623.html

Hopefully this helps.

Note pre-loaded is needed as touching with fingers can cause propellant to breakoff. The ammo reminds me of those parakeet bell of seeds.

02-23-2007, 05:04 PM	#1
Cowd Join Date: Dec 2006	Caseless shotgun shells? In the far future it appears that caseless bullets will become prevalent since it is overall better than the cased versions. Is it possible to make a caseless shotgun shell? I need this for a sci-fi setting I'm working on. Thanks!

02-23-2007, 05:08 PM	#2
elShoggotho Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? Can't imagine how. You could make caseless solid shotgun slugs or certain types of special ammunition (flares, microgrenades and stuff) but how would you make caseless shot? The whole term is a contradiction in itself to me. __________________ +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

02-23-2007, 05:19 PM	#4
elShoggotho Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? OK, you could set the shot in some fast-burning plastic. Wouldn't work that well and wear out the barrels pretty fast unless you fix them with some ultra-tech heat-resistant coating. __________________ +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

02-23-2007, 06:54 PM	#5
Kalli Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Falun, Sweden	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? Superficially it may sound unlikely but I'd think it's far from impossible. As it is today the shot is in a cup within the shotgun shells, see here. I'd think the greatest bother (besides all the usual caseless problems) would be affixing the cup to the propellant block. Given sufficient hardness/toughness of the propellent and the possibility to suitably shape it this shouldn't be to much of a problem. On the other hand, this would probably be a more fragile method of doing things and with little benefits over a more conventional, cased shell. Of course, we are talking about future/Ultra Tech stuff... I haven't kept up with development of caseless ammo but I think one of the problems with it is less survivability than with conventional brass cases. __________________ I may be just another geek here, but in Griffin I'm a baron.

02-23-2007, 07:05 PM	#6
Asok_Green Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? The shot could be made up of small, stacked temporary magnets which separate normally upon firing, thanks to shock demagnetization. A possible negative aspect to include or ignore at your discretion is the fact that a lot of tiny magnets lined up behave no differently than a single magnet of equal size, meaning unspent rounds might be a hazard to magnetically-sensitive electronics and such. Last edited by Asok_Green; 02-23-2007 at 07:11 PM.

02-23-2007, 07:50 PM	#7
Lord Carnifex Join Date: Oct 2005	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? Maybe instead of indivdiual pellets, you have a fragmenting case filled with a small explosive. The caseless propellent fires the fragmenting projectile that explodes shortly after clearing the barrel, spreading the fragments in a cone. Sort of a combination of fused HE and canister rounds, on a made-possible-with-high-tech smaller scale. Though I don't know why you'd bother, really. Just use a 20mm or smaller grenade launcher with caseless rounds instead. Aim low, so that if you miss, you catch your target in the frag radius. Last edited by Lord Carnifex; 02-23-2007 at 07:57 PM.

02-23-2007, 07:50 PM	#8
nanoboy Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Edmond, OK	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? Or, the rounds are packed into some sort of efficiently burning paper or similar material. Or, the rounds are separate from the propellant, which is a liquid in a small tank of the shotgun. Or, the shotgun is more like a repeating pepperbox rail gun.

02-23-2007, 08:34 PM	#9
aardvarknemesis Join Date: Feb 2007	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? My understanding is that in a caseless rifle round the entire bullet(or most of it) is encased in propellent, which would be the same with shot. The shot would probably be stacked on top of one another.

02-23-2007, 09:05 PM	#10
Easterner9504 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Mesa, AZ	Re: Caseless shotgun shells? aardvarknemesis description of caseless is correct. To use it in a shotgun just requires that it be in pre-loaded magazines. Would be smaller than current shells a big plus allowing for higher capacity. See a magazine fed SG here. http://www.defensereview.com/article623.html Hopefully this helps. Note pre-loaded is needed as touching with fingers can cause propellant to breakoff. The ammo reminds me of those parakeet bell of seeds. __________________ Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day. Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.