Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-02-2015, 12:55 PM   #81
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
And it's not like it's kobujutsu's token inconspicuous weapon which could conceivably allow it to stick around without competition in it's niche. Kobujutsu is famous for having the sort of weapons that compete with the tonfa. It does seem like one of the styles that likes to collect weapons but when it comes to slimming down the number of weapons being trained it's my impression that tonfa are really not one of the ones to go.
In my kobudo school, learning tonkwas is a mandatory. It is the third weapon that you learn, before nunchakus (the two first ones are bo and sai, in that order).

As I said it above, tonkwas are considered as one of the deadliest kobudo weapon. Sais were the weapon of the Okinawan policemen (thanks to their ability to disarm and the fact that, as metal weapon, they can parry other metal weapons like knives and swords). The bo was the most usual weapon because a staff is useful for a lot of ordinary things like walking. So, a lot of people had a bo at hand in their ordinary life...

And for the number of weapons taught, our masters just say that the main goal of kobudo is to learn a lot of very different weapons in order to become able to defend yourself with any tool at hand.

Here are the mandatory ones:
http://www.oshukai.fr/kobudo-okinawa...obudo-dokinawa

Last edited by Gollum; 01-02-2015 at 01:00 PM.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 12:56 PM   #82
Sindri
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verjigorm View Post
Bokken are not 6 foot lengths of hardwood. I make my own wasters from cherry, hickory, ash and walnut on occasion, and while lighter in construction, they are extremely powerful great swords, to the point that unarmored, full power exercise with them will produce real injury. A 6-7 foot length of a good hardwood is going to deliver more damage if I hold it at a high guard as a longsword, and deliver a massive overhead strike. That's the sort of strike can cleave a 90 or 100lb deer in half with an actual sword, but will also crack a man's skull wide open with a staff or waster.

There's a big difference from a bokken that's maybe 42" in length and a 58" or 72" length of hardwood.
... So what? My point is to establish a point of comparison with the tonfa that isn't as disputed as the quarterstaff.
Sindri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 01:35 PM   #83
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Just for reference, in GURPS terms, in order those are quarterstaff, sai, tonfa, nunchaku, three-part staff, jo, spear with added prongs, kama, oar, machete-and-shield (probably small, maybe medium), improvised warhammer*, and kusari. That means the style is training Staff, Jitte/Sai**, Tonfa**, Flail, Two-Handed Flail, Broadsword, Spear, Axe/Mace, Polearm, Shortsword, Shield, Two Handed Axe/Mace, and Kusari. Fencing skills aside, about the only real weapon skills missing are Knife, Two-Handed Sword (probably taught with the quarterstaff), and Whip.

*I suspect this is actually used more like a polearm; sw+2 imp, Reach 1,2*, Parry 0U, 6 lb, MinST 9† is probably about right.

**As I mentioned upthread, these probably shouldn't be their own skills. Jitte/Sai is probably Knife (making up for the lack of that), and Tonfa is Shortsword.
Varyon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 01:52 PM   #84
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Fundamentally, a tonfa is a club (probably shortsword-equivalent) with a somewhat unusual grip. That grip under normal conditions should give a bonus to thrust damage and a penalty to swing damage (because you can't use as much wrist rotation as you would for a normal grip; there's a reason you don't see hammers and axes with perpendicular grips); a spin technique might increase its swing damage to match that of a normal club.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 01:57 PM   #85
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
a spin technique might increase its swing damage to match that of a normal club.
This is the principal illusion of the tonfa. Because the "spin" technique increases the power generated in a blow, tonfa wielders are deceived into thinking that it is actually better than a regular club.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 03:19 PM   #86
Gollum
 
Gollum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
This is the principal illusion of the tonfa. Because the "spin" technique increases the power generated in a blow, tonfa wielders are deceived into thinking that it is actually better than a regular club.
I don't think that kobudoka are deceived...

All depends on what you exactly mean by club, of course. The French translation is "massue", "gourdin" and "matraque", three very different weapons (with different sizes and weights).

Tonkwa is certainly not better than a "massue" (which can be very big and heavy), but obviously much powerful than a "matraque" (policemen blackjack).

Furthermore, the spin is precisely what makes the tonkwa powerful. It's not a deception. It's its main feature, exactly like the blade is the main feature of a sword. A tonkwa without the possibility to spin is no more than a clumsy blackjack, I do agree. But using tonkwas without making them spin would be the same thing than using a sword only with the flat side... Something against the purpose of the weapon.

I think that GURPS characters who have got the Tonfa skill are supposed to know how to spin their tonfa exactly like characters who have got the Shortsword skill know how to hit with the blade rather than the flat side.

Last edited by Gollum; 01-02-2015 at 03:33 PM.
Gollum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 05:10 PM   #87
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
I don't think that kobudoka are deceived...
The only people who truly have a significant interest in optimizing hand-held striking implements, at least over the last few centuries, are makers of hand tools; assuming there is optimization to be done, hand tools should be 3-4 TLs more advanced than melee weapons.

We don't see perpendicular handles on swinging tools (hatchets, machetes, hammers, mallets, etc), which tells us that whatever utility is added by a perpendicular handle is not one that's useful to hand tools. Hand tools value accuracy, power, and ratio of effort to power, which tells us that either the swing grip costs a large amount of accuracy, or it's still inferior in striking power to a straight grip. Consideration of the biomechanics of a tonfa argue for both (chain weapons, by comparison, have quite a lot of speed and a fair amount of power, but very poor accuracy; they have historically had value for dealing with grain, but are largely replaced by mechanical tools).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
All depends on what you exactly mean by club, of course.
I'm just going to compare apples to apples: assume the same rod weight and length.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 06:51 PM   #88
Otaku
 
Otaku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: South Dakota, USA
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

So... going back to the idea of altering a tonfa to give it a little something extra, something that has even come up on the boards before (here, though no one official weighed in) sounds at least plausible: making one or both ends into large spikes.

Obviously, this increases the risk to the user; even a relatively large but still pointy spike can do bad things violently rubbing against you (let alone if you accidentally stab yourself). Just parrying wrong could result in your opponent driving a spiked end of a tonfa into yourself. Seems safer than the blades though. I myself would probably not make it a "tonfa spear" so much as just have the end shaped to a point; even if it was only good for some form of piercing damage (still trying to wrap my head around that addition to 4e, so I don't know if small or large would be appropriate) instead of impaling, it gives you something other than crushing attacks to work with.

It also seems like even in a more or less realistic game, you'd have two options with how to make it; either having it always be pointed on one or both ends (probably the best option) or having something that can be removed (screw on caps?). I'd be worried about the last bit in terms of breakage and the fact that each configuration should handle differently; seems like too many drawbacks in a realistic game to be worth bothering with, but then again we are already talking exotic weapon mods.
__________________
My GURPS Fourth Edition library consists of Basic Set: Characters, Basic Set: Campaigns, Martial Arts, Powers, Powers: Enhanced Senses, Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, Power-Ups 2: Perks, Power-Ups 3: Talents, Power-Ups 4: Enhancements, Power-Ups 6: Quirks, Power-Ups 8: Limitations, Powers, Social Engineering, Supers, Template Toolkit 1: Characters, Template Toolkit 2: Races, one issue of Pyramid (3/83) a.k.a. Alternate GURPS IV, GURPS Classic Rogues, and GURPS Classic Warriors. Most of which was provided through the generosity of others. Thanks! :)
Otaku is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 07:41 PM   #89
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
I don't think that kobudoka are deceived...

Furthermore, the spin is precisely what makes the tonkwa powerful. It's not a deception. It's its main feature, exactly like the blade is the main feature of a sword. A tonkwa without the possibility to spin is no more than a clumsy blackjack, I do agree. But using tonkwas without making them spin would be the same thing than using a sword only with the flat side... Something against the purpose of the weapon.
It is significantly worse than a regular club if you hold it by the handle. It is the "spin" technique that brings it back to par with a regular club.
__________________
Compact Castles gives the gamer an instant portfolio of genuine, real-world castle floorplans to use in any historical, low-tech, or fantasy game setting.

Last edited by DanHoward; 01-02-2015 at 09:48 PM.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2015, 10:49 PM   #90
Verjigorm
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Charlotte, North Caroline, United States of America, Earth?
Default Re: Improving the Tonfa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
... So what? My point is to establish a point of comparison with the tonfa that isn't as disputed as the quarterstaff.
I'm not exactly sure why you seek to model the Tonfa as something that's really a big deal. It was used by an isolated people who were forbidden real weapons, and there's no similar weapons that emerged elsewhere that I know of. So, any "advantage" it has is likely to be so minuscule as to be non realistic, or a feature of the user's skill than the weapon's actual effectiveness.


Even modern police forces seem to be using as many extendable batons as tonfa, and many officers are choosing to go without batons at all. A baton can be taken from the cop and used against him, as well as being once more step on the use of force continuum.
__________________
Hydration is key
Verjigorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
house rules, low-tech, martial arts, tonfa, weapons.

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.