Soldierly Honesty (and spies)

David Johnston2 · 12-11-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Of course soldiers invading a country do not consider themselves bound by the laws of that country either. Yet soldiers can be honest.

Soldiers invading another country bring their country's rules with them. NOC agents on the other hand, obey neither their country's laws nor those of the country they are operating in.

Lord Carnifex · 12-11-2009, 05:52 PM

Depending on the exact setting, spies being run by a higher agency - CIA, MI6, or whatever - at TL6+ may have a set of rules they're supposed to follow. The Vienna protocols, Presidential Executive Orders, or 'company policy'. I would imagine that an Honest spy would follows those rules and never go rogue.

~~Ragitsu~~ · 12-11-2009, 05:56 PM

Wait, what is the question (if any)?

jason taylor · 12-11-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Wait, what is the question (if any)?

Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

jason taylor · 12-11-2009, 06:01 PM

Then there are spies in a civil war. Benedict Arnold cannot be honest as he pledged himself to the rebel government, which from his point of view was the law. John Andre might have been if it wasn't for the fact that he was being insubordinate by going without uniform contrary to orders as he could not possibly be expected to recognize the Continental Congress.

jason taylor · 12-11-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Depending on the exact setting, spies being run by a higher agency - CIA, MI6, or whatever - at TL6+ may have a set of rules they're supposed to follow. The Vienna protocols, Presidential Executive Orders, or 'company policy'. I would imagine that an Honest spy would follows those rules and never go rogue.

That is a good suggestion.

LemmingLord · 12-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Can spies be honest in Gurps terms?

Interesting question. My first thought is absolutely not. Espionage is, by definition, stealing... and stealing is against the law in the country you are in (where you are stealing the information from).

Spies are spies because they are willing to break the laws of countries for the "greater good" of their own country (or for other incentives I suppose).

SuedodeuS · 12-11-2009, 06:51 PM

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

All told, I'd say a character with GURPS Honesty would generally not be able to be a spy, unless he were from a country with very odd laws. Alternatively, if he managed to do completely legal spying (the kind that wouldn't lead to justified incarceration in his home country), he could get away with it - but he probably wouldn't be able to get very good information!
If the campaign took place primarily in the enemy country, then unless his actions are also legal there he would probably have to take some sort of Accessibility modifier for his Honesty.

EDIT: Of course, if the character believes that what he's doing is legal in his own country, this could also work. Honesty should definitely be discounted in this case, and suffering from Delusion (but not getting points for it) would be justified.

cmdicely · 12-11-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

NOC agents on the other hand, obey neither their country's laws nor those of the country they are operating in.

NOC agents may obey their own country's laws, but may have special status under them (while acting within the scope of their assignment) such that this is a fairly insignificant restriction even if it is rigidly adhered to.

cmdicely · 12-11-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to.

A spy might break international law, but espionage itself is not, per se, a violation of international law. (Spies are outside the scope of special international protections which apply to, e.g., regular soldiers in a war, but that's not the same as breaking international law.)

12-11-2009, 05:52 PM	#2
Lord Carnifex Join Date: Oct 2005	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) Depending on the exact setting, spies being run by a higher agency - CIA, MI6, or whatever - at TL6+ may have a set of rules they're supposed to follow. The Vienna protocols, Presidential Executive Orders, or 'company policy'. I would imagine that an Honest spy would follows those rules and never go rogue. __________________ An ongoing narrative of philosophy, psychology, and semiotics: Et in Arcadia Ego "To an Irishman, a serious matter is a joke, and a joke is a serious matter."

12-11-2009, 05:56 PM	#3
~~Ragitsu~~ Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) Wait, what is the question (if any)?

12-11-2009, 06:01 PM	#5
jason taylor Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Portland, Oregon	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) Then there are spies in a civil war. Benedict Arnold cannot be honest as he pledged himself to the rebel government, which from his point of view was the law. John Andre might have been if it wasn't for the fact that he was being insubordinate by going without uniform contrary to orders as he could not possibly be expected to recognize the Continental Congress. __________________ "The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison

12-11-2009, 06:51 PM	#8
SuedodeuS Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: Soldierly Honesty (and spies) A spy is breaking the laws of the country he's in, but that's OK, as this is a hostile country to his own. Unfortunately, the very laws he is breaking also exist (in most cases) in his home country. He's also breaking international law if I'm not mistaken, which is something an Honest soldier is beholden to. All told, I'd say a character with GURPS Honesty would generally not be able to be a spy, unless he were from a country with very odd laws. Alternatively, if he managed to do completely legal spying (the kind that wouldn't lead to justified incarceration in his home country), he could get away with it - but he probably wouldn't be able to get very good information! If the campaign took place primarily in the enemy country, then unless his actions are also legal there he would probably have to take some sort of Accessibility modifier for his Honesty. EDIT: Of course, if the character believes that what he's doing is legal in his own country, this could also work. Honesty should definitely be discounted in this case, and suffering from Delusion (but not getting points for it) would be justified. __________________ Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat. Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad. Last edited by SuedodeuS; 12-11-2009 at 06:56 PM.