[RPM] Adapting Ars Magica into GURPS

[Qhaysh]

Ars Magica is a great game: it has a wonderful system for spellcasting and spell-design, and the setting is interesting and quite well-written. The problem is that the rest of the system is kind of low-resolution. So, being the GURPS fundamentalist that I am, I decided I'd try to convert the AM's magic.

Now, I know we already have Verb-Noun magic in Thaumatology. And although it is interesting, I don't quite find it robust enough (I did take a couple of ideas from it, though).

What I currently have in mind is kind of a mix of both systems (RPM and V/N Magic), but using the Effect Shaping variant (from Ghostdancer's lovely Pyramid Article).

Without further ado, here are the basic concepts:


Skills - Besides the usual 10 path skills (also called Forms, to follow Ars nomenclature) casters will also use 5 other skills called Techniques* (again, following Ars nomenclature).
In this system the 10 Forms are the thing being manipulated, and therefore work very much like the Nouns in the V/N Syntactic Magic from Thaumatology. The 5 Techniques are how the caster manipulates a given Form, and therefore work very much like the Verbs in the V/N Syntactic Magic from Thaumatology.

Casting - All spells involve at least two skills: one Technique (Verb) and one Form (Noun). When casting a given spell, the magus rolls both skills and adds the two margins together (if one of them is a failure, the margin might be negative). The combined margin must be equal to or higher than the final energy cost of the spell divided by 10 (using Ghostdancer's numbers from the Effect Shaping variant)**.
Casting time is calculated as per the guidelines in Effect Shaping.

*Despite the name, these are IQ/VH SKILLS, they are not techniques in the GURPS sense. Ars Magica calls its nouns Forms and its verbs Techniques.
** My rationale for this was that a point in MoS is more or less the same as a -1 penalty in the skill roll. I could be wrong.



I welcome any and all feedback you might have, oh Great Hivemind!

[lvalero]

Can you provide an example like Fireball? I suppose it would be Rego Ignem or maybe Creo + rego ignem (but I am not an expert in AM)

Would magery add to both rolls? How much would it cost in terms of energy and time?

By the way, maybe you can find this link useful http://spellswiki.wikidot.com

It is a fan made grimorie for AM

[Qhaysh]

Originally Posted by lvalero

Can you provide an example like Fireball? I suppose it would be Rego Ignem or maybe Creo + rego ignem (but I am not an expert in AM)

It's just CrIg in RAW ArM (looking at Ball of Abysmal Flame and Pilum of Fire).

Now here's an example: Blastius McBlastimus bani Flambeau wants to cast a single-target highly damaging fireball to damage his enemies. Blastius knows Creo (the create verb) at 14 and Ignem (the fire noun) at 18 (the guy loves fire!)

Now a sample fireball spell might be something like this:

FIREBALL
Spell Effects: Greater Create Energy.
Inherent Modifiers: Damage, External Burning.
Greater Effects: 1 (x3).
This spell conjures a ball of flame that the caster can then throw at a target. It does 9d burning damage.
Typical Casting: Greater Create Energy (6) + Damage, External Burning 3d (+8). 42 energy (14x3).

Since the final energy cost is 42, the required combined MoS would be 5 (42/10, rounded up). Now Blastius is casting his fireball. First he rolls against Creo: he gets a 15. Failure! He accumulates -1 "point" for his MoS. Then he rolls against Ignem (his strong score) and gets a 7 (lucky!), gettiing him a net MoS of 10 (11-1). The spell is successfully cast!

It took him 10 seconds to cast this spell. Had he wanted to cast it more quickly, he'd have had to take a -1 penalty for each second "shed".

Originally Posted by lvalero

Would magery add to both rolls? How much would it cost in terms of energy and time?

Stupid as that may sound, I had not thought about what to do with the magery bonus. Since in Ars there's no difference in raw talent from one mage to another, I don't think I'd even allow magery.

In terms of energy there's no actual cost, (just like the Effect Shaping variant for RPM). There's just this MoS you have to reach in order to successfully cast the spell.

Time is defined by how many Greater Effects there are in your spell (again, as per the Effect Shaping variant from Pyramid #66), the more of them, the longer it takes to cast the spell. Casting time can be reduced if the caster accepts penalties to his rolls (or maybe if an increase to the target MoS).

Originally Posted by lvalero

By the way, maybe you can find this link useful http://spellswiki.wikidot.com

It is a fan made grimorie for AM

Thanks!

[lvalero]

I am not very familiar with RPM but sounds it is a cool way to approach to AM.

With this system you may as well roll 6d against Form+technique. Another option is to roll 3d against the average of form and technique. With this second alternative the MoS should be Final cost / 20 instead of / 10.

Have you considered to have techniques as skills and have forms as advantages like Magery (ignem)? This way you could roll against technique + form in a very natural way.

By the way, in example you sent I think I would rule that the mage needs to be succesful with both rolls to prevent over-specialization

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by lvalero

With this system you may as well roll 6d against Form+technique.

Not a good idea. The sum of 6d is far more tightly grouped around 21 than the sum of 3d is around 10.5. I've seen a group make the corresponding mistake in adapting AM to a different game system, and they became ludicrously powerful very fast.

[lvalero]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Not a good idea. The sum of 6d is far more tightly grouped around 21 than the sum of 3d is around 10.5. I've seen a group make the corresponding mistake in adapting AM to a different game system, and they became ludicrously powerful very fast.

I agree with you that 6d have a very different distribution but in the example provided I think that the final impact over two 3d rolls against two skills adding up both MoS seems mathematically equals as adding the two skills on advance and then rolling the six dice. I may be wrong as I have not make the equations to prove it :)

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Qhaysh

Ars Magica is a great game: it has a wonderful system for spellcasting and spell-design, and the setting is interesting and quite well-written. The problem is that the rest of the system is kind of low-resolution. So, being the GURPS fundamentalist that I am, I decided I'd try to convert the AM's magic.

Compared to Ars Magica's high-simulation character advancement rules, GURPS' low-resolution ones are a complete joke.

And this is important, given that an emergent effect of Ars Magica's high-simulation character advancement rules is that spellcaster player characters, as well as spellcaster non-player characters, spend a lot of time worrying about how they can advance themselves most efficiently.

That's much of what makes Ars Magica great. That it's not about killing monsters and dragons because the GM tells you to, but about seeking to become a better scholar, facilitated by rules that actually acknowledge that some learning processes are much better than others.

A magi character, whether PC or NPC, can expect something like 400-700 seasons of lifespan, total, after apprenticeship. Most seek to spend those wisely.

Why waste a season being taught by a fellow Covenant member, in a skill you find valuable, when you can gain 30% or 40% more XP in that same skill, per season, if you can get a more skilled teacher, from another Covenant, to teach you instead? He won't spend a season teaching you, let alone two or three, out of the goodness of his heart, of course, but those Faeries he'd like you to deal with, in exchange for teaching you, can't be that dangerous, can they...?

Same with books. The primary kind of treasure in Ars Magica is the high-Quality book, because when you have it, you can study from it more efficiently. Covenant libraries are filled with trash books that noboy wants to read, but dangle a supreme-Quality book in front of a magi character and you'll have instant motivation. Instant in-character motivation.

What are your plans for drastically improving the simulativeness of GURPS' character advancement rules, so as to achieve an emergent effect that is at least somewhat comparable to what Ars Magica's rules achives?

[b-dog]

I am happy that people are converting Ars MaMagica to GURPS because I really like to take the cool stuff from Ars Magica and use it in DF.

[robertsconley]

Originally Posted by Qhaysh

Ars Magica is a great game: it has a wonderful system for spellcasting and spell-design, and the setting is interesting and quite well-written. The problem is that the rest of the system is kind of low-resolution. So, being the GURPS fundamentalist that I am, I decided I'd try to convert the AM's magic.

The strength and wonder of Ars Magica is not the magic system but in the society they built around being a mage. GURPS Magic is close enough in the broad concepts that it function as a replacement. Ritual Path Magic is a even a better fit although I never used it.

(what you can do, the limits, the length of time it takes to make magic items)

This is how I adapted it for my campaign.

http://www.batintheattic.com/wilderlands/magic.html

These are the rules

http://www.batintheattic.com/wilderl...agicRules.html

Granted they are for 3rd edition but they worked for 4th edition as well.

Magery grants Parma Magica at +5 modified magic resistance per level. So a Mage with Magery 3 has the equivalent of +15 Magic Resistance against any spell against them. Doesn't effect the Mage's own spell.

The magery for Mages outside of the order is at a reduced cost of 10 initial and 8 per level afterwards.

This effectively replicated one of the defining aspect of the Order of Hermes in relation to the magical world of Mythic Europe. The rest what I did was background material and roleplaying.

[Qhaysh]

RIIIISEE FROM YOUR GRAVE, ATTEND MY SUMMONS!

Sorry for the necromancy. I've gone back to pondering how to adapt Ars again, now that I finally have time for myself.

So one of the things about the magic in Ars is that a magus can choose to focus on either the verb (Technique) or the noun (Form) when increasing his powers. A magus wanting to fling fireballs around could choose to focus on Fire (Ignem) or Creo (Create), or maybe both. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Let's say I have Creo 5 and Ignem 10, I'll be casting with a 15; it could just as well be Creo 10 and Ignem 5, and I'd be casting as effectively. There are side benefits for each case: focusing on Techniques means more spellcasting flexibility (since there are only 5 verbs/Techniques and 10 nouns/Forms); whereas focusing on Techniques/nouns gives you some resistance against things of that type (e.g.: having high Ignem/Fire will give you some resistance agains fire).

Although I'm not one for translating the mechanics directly, I do think this particular bit of rules should be translated into the adaptation.

The best option still is, to my mind, using the verbs as semi-Attributes (raised from 10). Another option did occur to me, though: both Techniques /Verbs and Forms/Nouns are skills, and effective casting skill is calculated by adding both relative skill levels onto the attribute.

Let me give you a worked example: Blasty the Battle-magus, a Flambeau magus, knows Ignem/Fire (an IQ/H skill) at +3, which cost him 16 CP; he also knows Creo/Create (an IQ/VH skill) at +0, which cost him 8 CP. When casting a Fireball Spell, we add BOTH relative skill levels to his attribute (which we'll say is his IQ 12); which in this case means he rolls against an effective skill of 15 (12 base attribute level + 0 from Creo +3 from Ignem).

Let's say he now wants to put out a fire; that requires Perdo Ignem (Destroy Fire). His Ignem is +3 [16], and his Perdo is -2 [2]. So to put out said fire Blasty would be rolling against an effective skill of 13 (12 base attribute level -2 from Perdo +3 from Ignem).

Does this sound any better?