The 2017 W23 Digital Release, GURPS stuff and Speculation Thread

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by adm

The last Kickstarter SJGames completed was the Car Wars Arenas reprint. It went very well based on lessons learned from the OGRE KS.

Which was a promise of the Orgre Kickstarter.

[Andrew Hackard]

This is starting to veer off topic. If you want to keep rehashing older Kickstarters, there are appropriate subforums here to do that in. Let's keep this thread focused on 2017, please.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by philreed

Steve Jackson Games is a business. Having one owner who is a gamer gives us a lot of flexibility, but at the end of the day we owe it to our stakeholders -- the staff, distributors, retailers, gamers, our printers, and the gaming industry as a whole -- to do what is necessary to guarantee that we remain in business.

As it is, we have put more GURPS titles into print over the last six months than we have for years. And we're not done; Dungeon Fantasy is our biggest GURPS release in years.

So first off, I'm kind of confused by this as a response to my statement that SJ is a business and has to go where the money is. Aren't we essentially in agreement here? I understand the financial motivation to do what you're doing, and I would like do the same were I running the company. I'm just saying that as a fan of GURPS, I'm disappointed by it. I suppose I should be more disappointed that the culture and marketplace haven't rewarded you for producing a game I like, but the invisible hand of the market doesn't have a message board, so this seemed like the most logical place to voice my concerns.

As for books into print... I don't know how others feel, but I have bought a dead tree book in years and I simply don't care. No gamer I know uses physical books for their games, and four of the five gaming stores I used to frequent have closed in the past decade or so. I would personally prefer that SJ games prioritize digital supplements over print ones. The amount of books you put into print seems like an odd metric to evaluate quality.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

This is starting to veer off topic. If you want to keep rehashing older Kickstarters, there are appropriate subforums here to do that in. Let's keep this thread focused on 2017, please.

Seems rather on topic to me. GURPS releases are being largely put on the back burner for 2017 due to the Dungeon Fantasy kickstarter, and the way in which past kickstarters effected the GURPS line seems to be the best predictor of how the current kickstarter will do the same. Therefore, discussion of how past kickstarters effected GURPS is totally relevant to how this kickstarter will effect 2017 releases.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by wabishtar

Seems rather on topic to me. GURPS releases are being largely put on the back burner for 2017 due to the Dungeon Fantasy kickstarter, and the way in which past kickstarters effected the GURPS line seems to be the best predictor of how the current kickstarter will do the same. Therefore, discussion of how past kickstarters effected GURPS is totally relevant to how this kickstarter will effect 2017 releases.

The current Kickstarter is set for release in August and its effects should ease off once its sen to the printers which is probably July at the latest and maybe June.
Since we had product in November there is no way this one will have as limiting an effect as the Ogre kickstarter.
I agree that discussion of old kickstarters is getting off topic. Discussion of what future effects of the current or upcoming kickstarters is probably still on topic in this speculation thread.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by wabishtar

Seems rather on topic to me. GURPS releases are being largely put on the back burner for 2017 due to the Dungeon Fantasy kickstarter, and the way in which past kickstarters effected the GURPS line seems to be the best predictor of how the current kickstarter will do the same. Therefore, discussion of how past kickstarters effected GURPS is totally relevant to how this kickstarter will effect 2017 releases.

I was referring to the Ogre/Car Wars Arenas discussion, which is entirely irrelevant to what's being discussed here; nothing in those projects is impeding the publication of GURPS content. (Nor is Munchkin Shakespeare, to set your mind at ease about that; we're keeping it well away from the resources needed to complete the DFRPG components. There's a small amount of administrative overlap but not enough to cause delays to either project.)

If you (collectively) want to continue discussing DFRPG and how it affects the 2017 GURPS schedule, that's fine, as long as you can do so without disparaging the very hard work being put in by our GURPS team to create a boxed set that nearly 2,000 people have already supported. It's a big project and no denying it, but the end result -- a standalone RPG set that directly supports the single most popular roleplaying genre -- will be well worth any temporary inconvenience.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by Refplace

The current Kickstarter is set for release in August and its effects should ease off once its sen to the printers which is probably July at the latest and maybe June.

Projects require between 90 and 120 days at the factory, not one month. And at peak season, the time requirement is closer to the 120-day mark.

The challenge here is that our product announcements happen 120 days before release, and we try our best to not officially announce a game until it is at print.

[philreed]

Originally Posted by wabishtar

I would personally prefer that SJ games prioritize digital supplements over print ones.

This is an area where there is no agreement in the market. We spent the last few years releasing several GURPS titles in PDF only to be told that "GURPS is dying because it isn't in my store." Regardless of actual number of new PDFs published, a segment of the market decided that since the titles weren't in dead tree form at a store, then GURPS was on the way out.

Now, as we ramp up production of physical items, we are told by others that "Print is dead." and that we shouldn't put energy into physical books.

I am sure you can appreciate the situation we are dealing with.

[wabishtar]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard

If you (collectively) want to continue discussing DFRPG and how it affects the 2017 GURPS schedule, that's fine, as long as you can do so without disparaging the very hard work being put in by our GURPS team to create a boxed set that nearly 2,000 people have already supported. It's a big project and no denying it, but the end result -- a standalone RPG set that directly supports the single most popular roleplaying genre -- will be well worth any temporary inconvenience.

I do want to make something clear there, in case anyone working on this project was interpreting my remarks there as disparaging. I'm sure the Dungeon Fantasy Box Set will be very well done and masterfully written, as are most GURPS releases. I'm sure it will be brilliant for what it is. I just don't personally care for what it is. Just like how I can understand that a lot of Metallica songs are really well written great works of art and appreciate them despite the fact that I personally can't stand listening to heavy metal. Similarly, if a new Metallica album comes out, no matter how much people might tell me it's a brilliant work of art, and no matter how much I might agree, I will basically never get excited about it.

Continuing the analogy, one of my favorite musicians is Jonathan Coulton, who if you don't know him, does kind of easy listening comedic folk type songs about geek culture. If heavy metal suddenly saw a huge rebirth, no one was interested in JoCo's music anymore, and he decided to reinvent himself as a metal artist in order to stay relevant, I would understand the decision, but I would be really disappointed. I'm sure he would be brilliant at it, I'm sure the music would be great, but it's not what I enjoy, and it's not why I'm a fan of his, so while I would wish him luck, I would lose interest and stop buying his music. This is my major concern with Dungeon Fantasy, it has nothing to do with anyone's writing ability.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by philreed

Projects require between 90 and 120 days at the factory, not one month. And at peak season, the time requirement is closer to the 120-day mark.

The challenge here is that our product announcements happen 120 days before release, and we try our best to not officially announce a game until it is at print.

Yeah, I was trying to be overly pessimistic in my time estimates since I dont have the actual numbers and facts.
So lets say 90 days... That means about May and now were looking at 6 months. So worst case the DFRPG put a hold on new GURPS material for 6 months and probably less than that. Of course once those resources are freed up it wont mean instant books but we have some established authors in the pipeline so probably at least one will not require much editing time.

The question than goes back to was it worth losing those 6 or so months of regular production vs. the boxed set?
I very much hope so, not doubting quality and workmanship just how effective it will be at getting new customers.
Also it might still be considered a limited success even with few new customers based on sales volume.
Here is hoping for an unqualified success though!

Originally Posted by philreed

I am sure you can appreciate the situation we are dealing with.

Yeah that pretty much sucks and will put the grey on your head.
I think both points are valid though. More people prefer digital at this point but shelf space increases visibility and we need visibility to compete and attract attention from the other guys
I personally prefer hardcopy at the table and for casual reading but digital for planning a game. For most of my books I have both, and I dont think I am missing any hard copies at all that actually came out.