Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-23-2007, 08:40 PM   #41
Brandy
 
Brandy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Nashville, TN
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrarius
You're proposing a false dilemma. In the games I play in, we keep role playing and gaming separate but equal - you're expected to do your best in role playing, but how well you do in reality doesn't provide modifiers to rolls. This way, we get entertainment when the players are able to provide it, but they're not penalized for not living up to their character's sheet. The inventive for role playing is fun, not game bonuses.
I'm intrigued. How does this work exactly?

Given, for sake of argument, a character with a good diplomacy skill. Suppose he's been pulled over by a cop and wants to get out of the ticket, so he's going to try to use Diplomacy to Influence the cop's Reaction to him.

What does the player say? Would all of the following have the same effect in terms of the die roll?

Player 1: "Okay, as he walks up I say, 'Listen dawg, I pay your salary. You better be nice to me.' I have a high Diplomacy skill, so this might get me out of it and it's guaranteed not to **** him off -- says so right on page 187."

Player 2: "Okay, as he's walking up I pull out my wallet and set it on the dash, roll down the window, and put both hands on the steering wheel. I'll smile at him as he approaches. When he comes up, I'll let him speak first if he wants to, but if not I'll say 'I'm so sorry officer -- I realized when I saw your lights that I'd lost all track of how fast I was going.' I'm hoping my Diplomatic approach will help me get out of this. "

Player 3: "I want to use my Diplomacy skill to get out of it."

As a GM, I likely wouldn't treat these three the same.
__________________
I didn't realize who I was until I stopped being who I wasn't.
Formerly known as Bookman- forum name changed 1/3/2018.

Last edited by Brandy; 08-23-2007 at 08:45 PM.
Brandy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:41 PM   #42
SMaykrantz
 
SMaykrantz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Default Re: [MA]Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignor

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
..... they'd be expected to come up with narratives that explain why the metagame benefits are forthcoming. If they were bad/inexperienced at it, I might suggest they take Common Sense to allow them to poll the audience, as it were, for good ideas. that would be my second preference, though...the first would be to steer them away from this concept.
This is a good idea, although Common Sense may not be necessary. If I was GMing, I would encourage all of the players to come up with tactical ideas if the player of the Tactical Genius was coming up short.

This shouldn't be a problem. If someone can provide tactical ideas for someone else's character, that's still fun. It's like saying, "Hey Sean. Your mage should shoot a fireball at that tree, to distract the orcs." If Sean didn't come up with the idea on his own, it's no big deal.

---Scott
SMaykrantz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:42 PM   #43
Captain-Captain
 
Captain-Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MA]Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
No, you don't. You just have to be able to make up some fish story about how your brilliant planning helped your mate. If you can't do that, then you should avoid RPGs. Let's face it: "cover and formation" is fairly vague. "He was behind a rock" is entirely valid if you can't come up with anything better . . . it's just that the GM has the right to expect you to try, and might overrule you if you knew there were no rocks already (say, in a classroom, where "He's behind a desk" makes more sense). Ditto "He was behind his pal" or "We're slightly above the enemy, giving us a better angle." None of this requires knowledge of tactics . . . and no, using steps and retreats doesn't let you get by with system knowledge, since there will be times when retreating against B instead of A, or stepping here instead of there, will give an advantage that's encoded in the positioning, not in the rules.
I haven't got the book yet, but the quote from post #1 reads:
In battle, a leader may grant his rerolls to any ally who has just attempted a combat-related die roll. The recipient rolls twice more and selects the best result. The leader’s player must describe how such tactical factors as cover and formation altered the outcome. If the GM disagrees, the reroll is wasted.

I note a substantial subjective quality there. The GM's whim can negate the benefit of the advantage, and some GMs can be pretty damned whimsical.

Your post above shows that very simple descriptions of how the character's leader does things lets a reroll be granted. However, without access to those examples, going by the text above, I'd be inclined to set a higher standard for 'tactical factors".

If such examples are in the book itself, the OP is wasting our time. His arguments shivered by those examples.

However, if they are not there, technically he's right. That we, who frequent this BBS have access to those examples doesn't help Joe and Jane Average GURPSplayers.
__________________
...().0...0()
.../..........\
-/......O.....\-
...VVVVVVV
..^^^^^^^

A clock running two hours slow has the correct time zero times a day.
Captain-Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:46 PM   #44
Not another shrubbery
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

Sound and fury :/
They are options... If you feel they don't fit your gaming style, just don't use 'em *shrug*
Not another shrubbery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:59 PM   #45
Extrarius
 
Extrarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Psionic Ward
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman
[...]What does the player say? Would all of the following have the same effect in terms of the die roll?[...]
Yes, they are all treated mechanically the same. Depending on everybody's mood and the situation, which one is more entertaining likely varies. If the version matching the mood wasn't given, another player might offer another version either as an alternative of what "really" happens or as a joke. The two worlds (the game world that the character exists in and the real world that the player exists in) are kept entirely distinct.

There isn't a downside really IMO - all the entertainment without the frustration of occasionally not being able to think of something and thus getting a penalty "for no reason". If anything, it's slightly unfair in combat where things like positioning can't as easily be simulated with a die roll, but since everybody can contribute to each character's actions (with the 'owner' getting to decide among any suggestions), that is mitigated somewhat.

Last edited by Extrarius; 08-23-2007 at 09:03 PM.
Extrarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:07 PM   #46
tbone
 
tbone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extrarius
You're proposing a false dilemma. In the games I play in, we keep role playing and gaming separate but equal - you're expected to do your best in role playing, but how well you do in reality doesn't provide modifiers to rolls. This way, we get entertainment when the players are able to provide it, but they're not penalized for not living up to their character's sheet. The incentive for role playing is fun, not game bonuses.
Naw, I've included your games as well, via my "and/or":

OFF: Players don't want to roleplay appropriate approaches to social interaction, provide creative input on inventions or tactics, etc., and/or don't expect mechanics to be influenced by such. Ignore any related rules.

Your games follow the "or" path: Players don't expect mechanics to be influenced by [ability at roleplaying].

That doesn't exclude roleplaying – even good roleplaying.
__________________
T. Bone
GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner:
http://www.gamesdiner.com
Twitter: @Gamesdiner
(Latest goods on the site: Site status: Destruction and rebirth!. Probably the last post on the existing site before its pending recreation atop more modern bones. Stay tuned for the relaunch.)
tbone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:09 PM   #47
safisher
Gunnery Sergeant,
 Imperial Marines
Coauthor,
 GURPS High-Tech
 
safisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookman
Player 2: "Okay, as he's walking up I pull out my wallet and set it on the dash, roll down the window, and put both hands on the steering wheel. I'll smile at him as he approaches. When he comes up, I'll let him speak first if he wants to, but if not I'll say 'I'm so sorry officer -- I realized when I saw your lights that I'd lost all track of how fast I was going.' I'm hoping my Diplomatic approach will help me get out of this. "
IRL, if the cop is ever going to let you off, it's with this one. This would likely not result in you being pulled through the car window and beaten mightily. For that reason, and based on the skill modifiers for a good story, I'd roll reaction, give a hefty bonus, and reward the good roleplaying of the player. That is the point, after all.
__________________
Buy my stuff on E23.
My GURPS blog, Dark Journeys, is here.
Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.
safisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:29 PM   #48
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [MA]Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

I note a substantial subjective quality there. The GM's whim can negate the benefit of the advantage, and some GMs can be pretty damned whimsical.
I'm rather bad at writing games for players or GMs who game in the confrontational style, or for players who think the game is a competition. I write for cooperative players who collaborate with each other and the GM to create a good story. From what I know of Peter's group, this is true of him as well. So Martial Arts won't make you very happy if you're in one of those groups where you can't trust the GM or other players. The Tactics rule is just the tip of the iceberg. "Kicking butt to tell a good story" is more or less the theme of the book.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My LiveJournal [Just GURPS News][Just The Company]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:41 PM   #49
JMason
 
JMason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Cockeysville, MD
Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Games where the players just describe what their characters are doing and don't act them out, relying on skills may allow for a better simulation, but that's just ROLL playing, not ROLE playing.

And, if that is your thing, than go ahead and do it, but you'll have to ignore a substantial amount of the GURPS rules on good role playing, or play a different system.
__________________
---
My Blog: Dice and Discourse - My adventures in GURPS and thoughts on table top RPGs.
JMason is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:50 PM   #50
Captain-Captain
 
Captain-Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Re: [MA]Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
That's nice, but . . . I'm rather bad at writing games for players or GMs who game in the confrontational style, or for players who think the game is a competition. I write for cooperative players who collaborate with each other and the GM to create a good story. From what I know of Peter's group, this is true of him as well. So Martial Arts won't make you very happy if you're in one of those groups where you can't trust the GM or other players. The Tactics rule is just the tip of the iceberg. "Kicking butt to tell a good story" is more or less the theme of the book.
That's nice too, but... some of the people who buy your fine products could end up hosed because of the vagueness in that text. Your customer base goes beynod people who play the way you do. But this extends to people who do play the way you do, they're just stuck with a GM who zones out once in a while when given what he thinks is a predestined situation. Or you have the guy who has GM'd for four years straight and this GM is the first person around who'll let him PLAY...
__________________
...().0...0()
.../..........\
-/......O.....\-
...VVVVVVV
..^^^^^^^

A clock running two hours slow has the correct time zero times a day.
Captain-Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.