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Old 08-24-2007, 02:04 PM   #101
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
PS: So does anybody actually have and like Martial Arts, or is it doomed to be known as "the book with the Tactics rules that are unfair to sausage-like 'roleplayers'"?
That earned me a chuckle, though as far as I know the only 4e book with really bad rep is Magic. Then again, I'm in the consumer end.
I haven't bought MA yet, I've been away from the forums and this thread is the first I've read that let me know it was out. Agh, might be a while til I can empty my coffers for this one. But it sounds good already from the discussions I'm seeing in the forum.

On Topic:

Seriously people, roleplaying comes from the theatre and acting. Can you expect an actor to act the part of a physician if he knows NOTHING of medicine or medical professionals mannerisms? His acting will suck, won't it? The least that's expected is that he get a clue before attempting.

In this case, all that's called for is "I do such and such", wich can be completely non-clever... just situational. All it takes is imagining a battlefield or combat scene and coming up with an EXCUSE... any excuse to make your extra roll. It doesn't have to have anything with formal tactics. How hard is that?

In *most* settings bad roleplayers do get penalized... because if they don't the setting is screwed. Suppose you have a serious historical/hard-fantasy setting going on, and one of the players start pulling very crude anachronistic behaviours from the getto or whatever modern source. I mean, if you don't know anything about the dark ages or whatever age your playing in, your roleplaying will suck and your actions will appear nonsensical to the NPCs. I had one newbie gamer who asked the owner at the inn if the rooms had fridges (the little ones, I forget how you call them in english...). We had to stop the game and clarify that they didn't have refrigerators at all in the middle-ages. The game soon degenerated into nonsense (fun, but nonsense) because we couldn't stop the game every 20 seconds to clear something up. If we had been hard set on having a serious game, she'd probably be linched by a mob or something... if players actions are constantly overuled because the "character wouldn't do that" there's no point in having the player in the first place. The challenge is the game part.

But, like someone said, my player's characters do get an IQ (or other appropriate) roll when they try something really daft or inapropriate... just like disadvantages.

The roleplayer isn't required to know tactics... he's required to PRETEND he knows tactics. If he can't do that, it's not roleplaying at all.

P.S.: if your GM is out to get you, no ammount of rules will save you. Rules can't be made "GM-proof", they work the opposite way... giving power to the GM to alter them as necessary. Converse with your GM... only you can prevent forest fires.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:10 PM   #102
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

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Originally Posted by Xplo

To me, these phrases are both clear in their instructions and clearly distinct in meaning. Interpreting them correctly seems to require an understanding of the subtleties of English grammar more than an understanding of mathematics.
Yep. Math has nothing to do with it. This is an English test. ;)

For those here who aren't native anglos: In English, there's an implicit "then" in serial instructions provided as simple lists; i.e., "multiply this by 10% of the size of his force and round down" is equivalent to "multiply this by 10% of the size of his force and then round down." Likewise, "unplug the computer, open the case, and remove the hard drive" is equivalent to "unplug the computer, then open the case, and then remove the hard drive." Time-ordering is implicit in a sentence, so the "then" is customarily omitted for reasons of euphony and brevity. (The same goes for the "then" in an "if . . . then" statement: "If you go out, then take a brolly" is read as equivalent to "If you go out, take a brolly.") You can see in my computer example why the order matters -- you'd be ill-advised to do the second step before the first, and hard-pressed to do the third before the second. The custom is so well entrenched that even big companies advised by lawyers can get away with it in manuals for dangerous machines.

And slightly more on-topic, but still related: Martial Arts ran so long that I pulled a lot of cheap editorial tricks to make everything fit. This means that I omitted "optional" words as much as possible, and went with a few less-than-ideal usages (a few cases of "like" for "such as," numerous "let X do Y" for "allow X to do Y," and loads of "e.g." and "etc."). It all adds up; my pass knocked many pages off the book that would otherwise have cost us, I dunno, a few styles, or perhaps a quarter of the weapons. So if you're not a native reader, just remember that rules earlier in a sentence implicitly come before those later in a sentence, and that any rule that resorts to "like," "e.g.," or "etc." is almost certainly merely giving examples, not a prescriptive list.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:21 PM   #103
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Originally Posted by hal
Now - having given you that description, how would you attempt to wrest a tactics roll benefit?
My character, presumably, is a skilled tactician. I am not. I would most likely start by making a Tactics roll. Previous to the publication of this sample, I would expect some kind of clue or suggestion as a result of a successful roll, and that expectation has not changed.

Quote:
"My men, emboldened by their relative victory at the base of the hill, believe I can walk on water, having correctly predicted what would happen thus far. Filled with the belief they can do anything, they grimly march up the hill in preparation to engage the enemy on his ground."

Would that qualify for being able to use the "tactical reroll" aspect? Heady with seeming victory, the men take on a task with an ease of mind that is unsettling to their enemy?
High morale doesn't strike me as a valid tactical advantage in and of itself (although it ought to make Leadership rolls easier, which is partly why you're able to march your remaining troops uphill into what may be a meat grinder), so no, I'd guess it doesn't qualify for a reroll. Valid reroll conditions would seem to be those that take advantage of positioning or the environment; for instance, your foe on the hill - if he won the Tactics contest - could use their high ground advantage as justification for rerolls, perhaps blowing them all off to get some easy casualties at the start of melee and help their odds. On the other hand, the fact that your men are holding their formation might suffice.

Having said that, I'm going to point something out: every RPG I've seen has encouraged players (and GMs) to be descriptive in combat, yet in actual practice the majority of combat boils down to "I whack enemy #5 again" and "the monster attacks you this turn" for the sake of expediency. I don't see how this is any different, and I can easily imagine a group using the rerolls but not requiring actual descriptions for them.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:31 PM   #104
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Having said that, I'm going to point something out: every RPG I've seen has encouraged players (and GMs) to be descriptive in combat, yet in actual practice the majority of combat boils down to "I whack enemy #5 again" and "the monster attacks you this turn" for the sake of expediency. I don't see how this is any different, and I can easily imagine a group using the rerolls but not requiring actual descriptions for them.
Yeah. Again, the rules don't say anything about florid prose or poetic description, but justifying how tactics could let you turn your luck around.

"You're companions are charging up the hill when the orcs unleash their arrows. Tommy the Hobbit takes one in the eye because he failed his dodge roll and..."

"Wait," says the tactical leader "We specifically chose our attack route so that the sun would be behind us. That will blind the orcs and make it harder for them to hit."

Tada. Rerolls.

If your players really have trouble with this, consider giving them a tactical primer in the form of a cheatsheet they can steal common excuses from, or allow them to plan out some good excuses in advance. They might even start to arrange things before the fight to allow even more excuses and find themselves actively roleplaying their tactics MORE.

I can't see how this is a bad thing.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:34 PM   #105
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Originally Posted by Mailanka
...Tommy the Hobbit takes one in the eye because he failed his dodge roll and..."
...then he becomes a very short pinball wizard. With such a supple wrist.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:45 PM   #106
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Originally Posted by Mailanka
Yeah. Again, the rules don't say anything about florid prose or poetic description, but justifying how tactics could let you turn your luck around.
No, no. I meant nothing at all. You win the Tactics roll, you get the benefits. The numbers are your only justification. That's how I imagine some people using these rules.

---

While we're on this subject, any suggestions from the crowd on good elementary tactical primers, preferably covering a broad range of possible engagements (and ideally available for free online or in most libraries)? I know a number of suggestions have been made on these forums in the past, but searching just returns noise.
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Old 08-24-2007, 02:56 PM   #107
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically igno

Combat Leaders Field Guide
Writing Military Science Fiction

Both are modern and American-military ideas, but then again, the American military is a pretty good'un.
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:01 PM   #108
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Originally Posted by Xplo
While we're on this subject, any suggestions from the crowd on good elementary tactical primers, preferably covering a broad range of possible engagements (and ideally available for free online or in most libraries)? I know a number of suggestions have been made on these forums in the past, but searching just returns noise.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...olicy/army/fm/

General soldierly skills: http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...-75/index.html

Speaking of US Army Field Manuals...boy am I glad you asked this question. I had no idea someone had collected them into one place like this.
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Old 08-24-2007, 03:06 PM   #109
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplo
No, no. I meant nothing at all. You win the Tactics roll, you get the benefits. The numbers are your only justification. That's how I imagine some people using these rules.

---

While we're on this subject, any suggestions from the crowd on good elementary tactical primers, preferably covering a broad range of possible engagements (and ideally available for free online or in most libraries)? I know a number of suggestions have been made on these forums in the past, but searching just returns noise.
Yeah, I hear you, and there's nothing wrong with that approach. It's a little abstract, but some people like their games like that.

Anyway, primer

I wrote a Stunt Cheat Sheet for Exalted once, which was a list of stuff you might describe arranged in categories. I would imagine a tactical primer would look similar.

Sun Tzu says there are 5 things that matter on the battlefield: Heaven (the weather, the position of celestial objects), Earth (the shape of the ground and the terrain around you), Method and Discipline (how your troops are trained and their morale), the Commander (his quirks, your quirks), and the Morale Law (the "Mandate of Heaven"). This has to do with how willing people are to go to war for their leader. This doesn't impact tactics much, beyond morale: are they really willing to fight and die here, rather than just leave.

Those seem pretty good categories. Examples of Heaven are: Exploiting the weather (is it raining? How can you use that to your advantage?), expoiting the sun (attacking at night, attacking with the sun at your back, etc). Earth: Take the high ground, use the curves of the terrain to funnel the troops into ambushes, etc. Method and Discipline: know the weaknesses of your enemies and offer tips and pointers to your troops to exploit them. Do the same for your strengths ("Ok, I want meatshield up front, taking their fire."). Commander would have to do with knowing your enemies mental disadvantages and weaknesses, and finding a way to exploit them. If you know he is arrogant and prone to assuming victory is imminent, draw up plans that will feed that arrogance. If he's overly suspicious and paranoid, always looking for defeat around the corner, give it to him, and position your troops in such a way that it seems inevitable that he will lose.

And so on.

There's actually alot of ways you can use those Tactical benefits beyond "making use of the terrain." The phalanx shield wall, for example, is a perfect example of Method and Discipline in action, and doesn't rely on terrain.

I would also include two things at the top of the sheet: 1) Every advantage you have is a disadvantage to your opponent, and vica versa. Exploit your strengths and minimize your weaknesses, and do the opposite to him. 2)All warfare is based on deception. Appear far when you are near, appear near when you are far. Appear strong where you are weak, and appear weak where you are strong.

Follow those basic guidelines and think in terms of Heaven, Earth, Commander, and Method and Discipline, and you should be golden.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:02 PM   #110
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Default Re: [MA] Tactical genius Character is penalised because the Player is tactically ignorant

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole
...then he becomes a very short pinball wizard.
Hobbit pinball? There might be a market for it... but how would you make a playfield big enough?

JK!
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