Persistent Shock Penalty

Henchman99942 · 01-10-2019, 08:26 AM

Trait Alteration.

Persistent Shock Penalty. Shock penalty is now persistent. Any penalty received from shock from injury persists. The penalty is reduced by one level per second until it has been reduced to zero. If multiple injuries are suffered, use only the highest penalty as the current level. Because of this game mechanic, High Pain Threshold and Low Pain Threshold are priced differently.

High Pain Threshold. Cost 3/6/9/12. Up to 4 levels.
Each level of High Pain Threshold reduces the penalty from shock by one level. Thus, with three levels of High pain Threshold, only an injury that would have produced a -4 shock penalty has any effect on the individual, and then the penalty is only -1.

Low Pain Threshold. Cost 20 points. Because the shock penalty is doubled, and because shock penalty is now persistent, it may take a very long time for an individual with this trait to recover from shock penalty. If the maximum penalty is incurred (-8), it will take 8 seconds to fully recover (as described above).

naloth · 01-10-2019, 10:05 AM

On one hand, it makes shock much more relevant and low pain threshold somewhat less of a relative drawback. On the other hand, it adds to book keeping. It sounds like a nice idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough to keep track of it.

ericthered · 01-10-2019, 10:23 AM

Leveling high pain threshold is awesome. I'd have preferred if it still ended up being divisible by 5, but I really like the idea.

I've seen schemes that inflict persistent pain penalties on the victim after injury before, but usually they have an instant shock penalty and then a permanent penalty that doesn't go away until bandaged.

whswhs · 01-10-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

Leveling high pain threshold is awesome. I'd have preferred if it still ended up being divisible by 5, but I really like the idea.

Leveled high pain threshold already exists. It's bought as Resistant to Pain +3/Resistant to Pain +8/Immunity to Pain. See p. 23 in GURPS Powers: The Weird for the definition and p. 34 for an ability built with in, Impassivity. I thought it made more sense to fit it into the Resistant/Immunity structure than to make it a leveled trait of the usual sort.

ericthered · 01-10-2019, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

Leveled high pain threshold already exists. It's bought as Resistant to Pain +3/Resistant to Pain +8/Immunity to Pain. See p. 23 in GURPS Powers: The Weird for the definition and p. 34 for an ability built with in, Impassivity. I thought it made more sense to fit it into the Resistant/Immunity structure than to make it a leveled trait of the usual sort.

That's leveled resistance to pain, which is useful and nice. The thing I really like is resistance to shock, as opposed to immunity to it.

Plane · 01-10-2019, 12:50 PM

High Pain Threshold (Aftermath: -1 to IQ+DX) : profit?

whswhs · 01-10-2019, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericthered

That's leveled resistance to pain, which is useful and nice. The thing I really like is resistance to shock, as opposed to immunity to it.

High Pain Threshold includes total immunity to shock penalties. Even the ordinary +3 versus pain confers immunity to those penalties.

I'm not sure how to break this down. Maybe immunity to shock is 5/2/1, and immunity to pain without immunity to shock is 30/15/10, so the two add up to 15? That would make the arithmetic more complicated for immunity to pain including immunity to shock, though!

tbone · 01-11-2019, 10:33 PM

I was never a big fan of HPT's complete removal of penalties; I like more level-based approaches (though HPT does have a lovely simplicity).

For the amusement of tinkerers, here are my ancient 3e house rules for leveled high pain threshold:

High Pain Threshold (revised)

10 points

High Pain Threshold comes in three levels, all with the same point cost:

High Pain Threshold: Halve the pain and shock from any injury (or alternately, subtract 3 points; pick one method and stick with it). Take a +3 on rolls to resist torture, stunning, or other pain effects. This is an appropriate advantage for tough people and tough animals like wild boars.

Very High Pain Threshold: You feel almost no pain! As above, but quarter pain and shock (or alternately, subtract 6), and take +6 on appropriate rolls. Wounds do not reduce Move and Dodge until HP are below zero, and rolls to avoid unconsciousness from injuries are at +2. Very High Pain Threshold sounds right for sharks and lower life forms.

The downside: the GM secretly tracks damage. Wounds may not even be noticed during battle, and diseases may go unnoticed until symptoms other than pain appear.

A check over and Diagnosis roll can determine current HP. You will not instinctively favor injured areas; take a -2 penalty to healing rolls and rolls to resist long-term crippling. Also take a -2 penalty to rolls to reflexively avoid pain (such as a DX roll to remove your hand from a hot stove before taking damage).

No Pain: You feel no pain and suffer no shock penalties or Move or DX loss from wounds. Take +4 on rolls to avoid unconsciousness from wounds (or do so automatically, at the GM's option). But you won't notice wounds other than by sight or from the feel of impact; even a Diagnosis roll will only give you a rough idea of your state. Disease may go unnoticed dangerously long. Healing and crippling rolls as described above are at -4. Rolls to reflexively avoid painful stiimuli are also at -4, or fail automatically.

No Pain is best suited to undead creatures. With the exception of temporary berserk states, this rare condition is deadly when it appears as a human defect!

Amusing, but very old; needs revision/updating. (For example, "subtract 6 from shock penalties" doesn't even make sense in 4e, where penalties max at -4.) And the stuff about the dangers of not feeling pain, while interesting, isn't necessarily what players want as part of their tough-guy character concepts. It should probably be broken off into its own disad for the niche designs that would use it.

===

Anyway, the other scheme I've vaguely played with in my head – no worked-out detail, no testing - is simple doubling of the damage that causes each level of shock penalty. Like this:

Damage: Shock penalty
1: -1
2: -2
4: -3
8: -4
16: -5
32: -6
...and on and on.

How to use it: There'd be no "max -4" cap on shock; -5 or higher penalties would be possible (if unlikely to occur often).

High Pain Threshold could be a leveled advantage: each level reduces shock penalties by 1 (i.e., effectively halves damage for shock purposes). Two levels would reduce, say, a penalty of -5 to -3, effectively reducing the shock from 16+ damage to that of only 4+ damage.
Levels of HPT would also add directly to rolls to resist pain spells, etc.
There would presumably be some max level of HPT (5 levels?) at which no shock penalties apply at all.

Low Pain Threshold would work in reverse: each level of it would add 1 to shock penalties (effectively treating damage as doubled for shock purposes).

Specific types of attacks ("pain whips", etc.) or targets (groin, etc.) would have similar effects: treat shock as 1 level higher for groin hits, etc.

That's about it for now. Not terribly different from how HPT and LPT currently work, but tweaked for a level-based approach.

Final note: You could of course rework that progression to mimic the Size & Speed/Range progression:

Damage: Shock penalty
1: -1
1.5: -2
2: -3
3: -4
5: -5
7: -6
10: -7
15: -8
20: -9
30: -10
...and on and on.

That's definitely more harsh - though maybe that's realistic? But if using that progression, I'd make levels of HPT relatively low cost, and encourage players to take a level or two.

===

Final topic: the persistent penalty aspect, per the thread title. The only thing I've every played with in this area is this simple idea:

Shock penalties do not disappear automatically at the start of the turn; they can persist, and even accumulate.

At the start of the turn, roll vs HT. Reduce any ongoing shock penalties by the margin of success.

That's all. I think it's interesting and even works well – except for the obvious flaw, the bookkeeping aspect. You have to keep tabs on the current shock penalty of each character, and there are lots more HT rolls in combat. (I wouldn't be surprised if SJG tinkered with such an idea in the design stage, and rejected it for the extra hassle.)

===

And that's about all I got on pain in GURPS. Maybe something in there is of interest to somebody.

Plane · 01-12-2019, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone

The only thing I've every played with in this area is this simple idea:

Shock penalties do not disappear automatically at the start of the turn; they can persist, and even accumulate.

At the start of the turn, roll vs HT. Reduce any ongoing shock penalties by the margin of success.

That's all.

Have you wrote this up on your blog? I think you wrote the "Duck!" article and would like to see a pretty version of this too.

HPT could then be a bonus to this roll, and you could roll immediately (if applying shock to active defense, you normally don't) instead of before start of turn

tbone · 01-12-2019, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane

Have you wrote this up on your blog? I think you wrote the "Duck!" article and would like to see a pretty version of this too.

No, that's not written up. I could and probably should. But for gaming "persistent shock", the two sentences you quote are the entirely of my "system". (And I'm pretty sure others have played with the same thing, maybe with more detail added.)

Quote:

HPT could then be a bonus to this roll, and you could roll immediately (if applying shock to active defense, you normally don't) instead of before start of turn

I'm not sure about HPT adding a bonus to the roll to lose shock. It seems obvious that it should. But my thinking has been that shock was already reduced initially for HPT; also adding HPT to the HT roll to recover from persistent shock means HPT reduces your shock to begin with, and lets you shake off that shock faster. It's a double bonus. And LPT would have the opposite effects: increase your shock to begin with, and make it harder to shake off. Double punch.

Revisiting the topic here, though, that doesn't sound bad! Maybe that's as it should work. Will put it on the "test this!" list.

01-10-2019, 08:26 AM	#1
Henchman99942 Join Date: Oct 2012	Persistent Shock Penalty Trait Alteration. Persistent Shock Penalty. Shock penalty is now persistent. Any penalty received from shock from injury persists. The penalty is reduced by one level per second until it has been reduced to zero. If multiple injuries are suffered, use only the highest penalty as the current level. Because of this game mechanic, High Pain Threshold and Low Pain Threshold are priced differently. High Pain Threshold. Cost 3/6/9/12. Up to 4 levels. Each level of High Pain Threshold reduces the penalty from shock by one level. Thus, with three levels of High pain Threshold, only an injury that would have produced a -4 shock penalty has any effect on the individual, and then the penalty is only -1. Low Pain Threshold. Cost 20 points. Because the shock penalty is doubled, and because shock penalty is now persistent, it may take a very long time for an individual with this trait to recover from shock penalty. If the maximum penalty is incurred (-8), it will take 8 seconds to fully recover (as described above).

01-10-2019, 10:05 AM	#2
naloth Join Date: Sep 2004	Re: Persistent Shock Penalty On one hand, it makes shock much more relevant and low pain threshold somewhat less of a relative drawback. On the other hand, it adds to book keeping. It sounds like a nice idea, but I'm not sure I like it enough to keep track of it.

01-10-2019, 10:23 AM	#3
ericthered Hero of Democracy Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: far from the ocean	Re: Persistent Shock Penalty Leveling high pain threshold is awesome. I'd have preferred if it still ended up being divisible by 5, but I really like the idea. I've seen schemes that inflict persistent pain penalties on the victim after injury before, but usually they have an instant shock penalty and then a permanent penalty that doesn't go away until bandaged. __________________ Be helpful, not pedantic Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!

01-10-2019, 12:50 PM	#6
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: Persistent Shock Penalty High Pain Threshold (Aftermath: -1 to IQ+DX) : profit?

01-11-2019, 10:33 PM	#8
tbone Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Persistent Shock Penalty I was never a big fan of HPT's complete removal of penalties; I like more level-based approaches (though HPT does have a lovely simplicity). For the amusement of tinkerers, here are my ancient 3e house rules for leveled high pain threshold: High Pain Threshold (revised) 10 points High Pain Threshold comes in three levels, all with the same point cost: High Pain Threshold: Halve the pain and shock from any injury (or alternately, subtract 3 points; pick one method and stick with it). Take a +3 on rolls to resist torture, stunning, or other pain effects. This is an appropriate advantage for tough people and tough animals like wild boars. Very High Pain Threshold: You feel almost no pain! As above, but quarter pain and shock (or alternately, subtract 6), and take +6 on appropriate rolls. Wounds do not reduce Move and Dodge until HP are below zero, and rolls to avoid unconsciousness from injuries are at +2. Very High Pain Threshold sounds right for sharks and lower life forms. The downside: the GM secretly tracks damage. Wounds may not even be noticed during battle, and diseases may go unnoticed until symptoms other than pain appear. A check over and Diagnosis roll can determine current HP. You will not instinctively favor injured areas; take a -2 penalty to healing rolls and rolls to resist long-term crippling. Also take a -2 penalty to rolls to reflexively avoid pain (such as a DX roll to remove your hand from a hot stove before taking damage). No Pain: You feel no pain and suffer no shock penalties or Move or DX loss from wounds. Take +4 on rolls to avoid unconsciousness from wounds (or do so automatically, at the GM's option). But you won't notice wounds other than by sight or from the feel of impact; even a Diagnosis roll will only give you a rough idea of your state. Disease may go unnoticed dangerously long. Healing and crippling rolls as described above are at -4. Rolls to reflexively avoid painful stiimuli are also at -4, or fail automatically. No Pain is best suited to undead creatures. With the exception of temporary berserk states, this rare condition is deadly when it appears as a human defect! Amusing, but very old; needs revision/updating. (For example, "subtract 6 from shock penalties" doesn't even make sense in 4e, where penalties max at -4.) And the stuff about the dangers of not feeling pain, while interesting, isn't necessarily what players want as part of their tough-guy character concepts. It should probably be broken off into its own disad for the niche designs that would use it. === Anyway, the other scheme I've vaguely played with in my head – no worked-out detail, no testing - is simple doubling of the damage that causes each level of shock penalty. Like this: Damage: Shock penalty 1: -1 2: -2 4: -3 8: -4 16: -5 32: -6 ...and on and on. How to use it: There'd be no "max -4" cap on shock; -5 or higher penalties would be possible (if unlikely to occur often). High Pain Threshold could be a leveled advantage: each level reduces shock penalties by 1 (i.e., effectively halves damage for shock purposes). Two levels would reduce, say, a penalty of -5 to -3, effectively reducing the shock from 16+ damage to that of only 4+ damage. Levels of HPT would also add directly to rolls to resist pain spells, etc. There would presumably be some max level of HPT (5 levels?) at which no shock penalties apply at all. Low Pain Threshold would work in reverse: each level of it would add 1 to shock penalties (effectively treating damage as doubled for shock purposes). Specific types of attacks ("pain whips", etc.) or targets (groin, etc.) would have similar effects: treat shock as 1 level higher for groin hits, etc. That's about it for now. Not terribly different from how HPT and LPT currently work, but tweaked for a level-based approach. Final note: You could of course rework that progression to mimic the Size & Speed/Range progression: Damage: Shock penalty 1: -1 1.5: -2 2: -3 3: -4 5: -5 7: -6 10: -7 15: -8 20: -9 30: -10 ...and on and on. That's definitely more harsh - though maybe that's realistic? But if using that progression, I'd make levels of HPT relatively low cost, and encourage players to take a level or two. === Final topic: the persistent penalty aspect, per the thread title. The only thing I've every played with in this area is this simple idea: Shock penalties do not disappear automatically at the start of the turn; they can persist, and even accumulate. At the start of the turn, roll vs HT. Reduce any ongoing shock penalties by the margin of success. That's all. I think it's interesting and even works well – except for the obvious flaw, the bookkeeping aspect. You have to keep tabs on the current shock penalty of each character, and there are lots more HT rolls in combat. (I wouldn't be surprised if SJG tinkered with such an idea in the design stage, and rejected it for the extra hassle.) === And that's about all I got on pain in GURPS. Maybe something in there is of interest to somebody. __________________ T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner \| RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link \| This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.)