Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

[David Bofinger]

I think most people feel that wizards are probably slightly more capable than heroes at the low levels and much more capable at the high levels. This leads to parties that have lots of wizards in them, though the game's designer obviously imagined that most characters would be heroes and wizards would be rare.

Would it be a good idea to give wizards fewer attributes at any particular level of experience? If so, how many?

[hcobb]

Remove the "fighters" abilities from Wizards. No zerk, no waiting for an opening.

Also let Heroes but not Wizards subtract their Toughness level from the DX penalty of their armor.

[Shostak]

I think they are pretty well balanced, actually. The wizard's lack of armor and thrown spell range penalties make them need proximity to targets,yet put themselves in dangerous territory. And, unlike a hero, they lose ST for even trying to attack with magic, whereas an archer could plug the wizard with arrows until their quiver ran out with no ill effects.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Remove the "fighters" abilities from Wizards. No zerk, no waiting for an opening.

This is obviously an answer to a different question. Also, I'm not sure what a zerk is, though I think my character got bitten by one once, or maybe bit one once, I don't recall for certain. And I rarely see situations where waiting for an opening is a big deal, especially since it's an optional rule.

Also let Heroes but not Wizards subtract their Toughness level from the DX penalty of their armor.

The effect of this:

• Toughness becomes a more powerful talent, everybody who can gets it.
• ST 12 and ST 14 become more popular at the expense of ST 11 and ST 13.
• Unarmoured ST 12+ characters become endangered.
• Unarmoured ST 12+ IQ 9+ characters become extinct.
• Less-than-leather ST 14+ characters become endangered.
• Less-than-leather ST 14+ IQ 9+ characters become almost extinct.
• The character who is personally tough but doesn't wear armour, surely a staple of deranged Celts, becomes extinct.

The net result of all this is a reduction in character variety. I think this is a bad thing. Toughness already gives you a point of armour, why should it give you almost two?

[hcobb]

The problem is that heroes are much better off without any armor, so no advantage over wizards there:

Human Hero
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Very Fine Rapier(1d+2+1), Small Shield(1+1), Main-Gauche(?)
Fencer, Knife, Shield, Shield Expertise, Sword.
Light spell.

Pondering if it would be better to go with Spike Shield and Two Weapons?

Hoplite Cassidy
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Very Fine Javelin(1d+1+1), Spike Shield(1+1), Dagger
Knife, Pole Weapons, Shield, Shield Expertise, Two Weapons, Weapon Expertise-Pole Weapons

Trick is to announce standing charge response with Spike Shield parry and if the foe is still standing after taking 9 hits then they just need to roll at DX-1 for Weapon Expertise and another DX-1 for Shield Expertise, and if they hit the Spike Shield stops one hit for Shield, one hit for Shield Expertise and two hits for second weapon parry.

[larsdangly]

I feel like heroes and wizards are actually surprisingly well balanced, particularly in any campaign where people do things other than murder each other in arenas.

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by hcobb

The problem is that heroes are much better off without any armor, so no advantage over wizards there:

Human Hero
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Very Fine Rapier(1d+2+1), Small Shield(1+1), Main-Gauche(?)
Fencer, Knife, Shield, Shield Expertise, Sword.
Light spell.

Pondering if it would be better to go with Spike Shield and Two Weapons?

Hoplite Cassidy
ST 9, DX 12, IQ 11, MA 10
Very Fine Javelin(1d+1+1), Spike Shield(1+1), Dagger
Knife, Pole Weapons, Shield, Shield Expertise, Two Weapons, Weapon Expertise-Pole Weapons

Trick is to announce standing charge response with Spike Shield parry and if the foe is still standing after taking 9 hits then they just need to roll at DX-1 for Weapon Expertise and another DX-1 for Shield Expertise, and if they hit the Spike Shield stops one hit for Shield, one hit for Shield Expertise and two hits for second weapon parry.

The value of armor for characters who will participate in lots of close combat is arguably the least well understood issue in 'white room' discussions of TFT.

To understand it better, a good rule of thumb about its effects is that a characters 'durability' under attack (number of turns you will survive when subjected to a given level of attack) rises with armor protection, but in a way that is a non-linear function of the damage rolls to which you are subjected. i.e., 2 points of armor makes you more than twice as 'durable' when you are being attacked by 1-die damage attacks, but only about 20% more durable when attacked by 3-die attacks. Thus, 2-point protection is worth a significant investment in DX penalty when you get attacked by light weapons, but not when you get attacked by heavy weapons.

Similar arguments apply for heavier armors, i.e., the 'tipping point' of ~2x improved durability happens at 4 points of armor vs. 2d attacks and 6 points of armor vs. 3d attacks.

So, the question you should ask yourself is, how much will armor help me vs. what I am facing, and how much are my offensive abilities degraded by the associated DX penalty?

A good rule of thumb to this latter question is that your offensive output drops quickly with rising DX penalties when your base DX is low (e.g., going from 10 to 8 cuts your offense in half) whereas it makes relatively little difference when your base DX is high (e.g., going from 16 to 14 is almost irrelevant - a roughly 6 % drop in relative offensive firepower).

Of course initiative matters, but it matters a lot less when you are armored because the risk of a 'knock out' blow is minimized. I.e., when you wear armor appropriate to the attacks you will face, you are more at risk of being ground down slowly than you are of being 'zapped' by a person who gets initiative on you. Also, armor is more penalized when you face off with someone in a duel and basically always desirable when you are subject to attacks you can't avoid (missile fire; traps; nuisance swarms; etc.).

So, your ideal amount of armor depends on who you are facing and what your base DX is. Given a typical mix of threats, you are probably best off with wearing the most armor you can, provided it doesn't reduce your adjDX below 10 or 11.

[larsdangly]

Also, it is useful to be aware of the diverse paths you have to achieving substantial armor protection; i.e., there are a variety of character types who can readily get to the point where they are truly well armored, even ignoring magic items, spells, etc. E.g.:

Experienced Knight: Fine plate, Toughness I, small shield and Shield Expertise = 9 points for a 4 pt DX penalty and moderate investment in IQ. Your durability vs. 3d attacks is 7x that of an unarmored figure, and your durability vs. 1d and 2d attacks is through the roof.

Tribal warrior: Tower shield, Toughness II, Shield Expertise = 6 points of protection for a 2 point DX penalty, significant investment in ST and moderate investment in IQ.

Kung Fu master: Toughness I, Martial Arts V and cloth armor: 5 points of protection for -1 DX penalty and a relatively large investment in IQ.

[Anthony]

The easy way to adjust it would be to have being a wizard cost attribute points, either a fixed number or a variable number based on the range of spells (say, 1 for spells up to IQ 10, 2 for spells up to IQ 15, 3 for spells of IQ 16+). Disclaimer: not tested, I have no idea what numbers would actually be balanced.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

Kung Fu master: Toughness I, Martial Arts V and cloth armor: 5 points of protection for -1 DX penalty and a relatively large investment in IQ.

That is a 41 attribute point character.

Remove the extra point of DX and the Cloth Armor, saving eight thousand XPs.

Convert these into eight thousand gold pieces and buy an Iron Flesh ring and a self-powered Spell Shield ring. Put the remaining cash into potions.