Molly Logic

[Skarg]

Yes... and even if you were playing some kind of munchkin min-max hell campaign, the ST 6 unarmored people would be getting wiped out by arrows before they got very experienced.

And in that munchkin min-max hell world "the typical experienced archer" would start killing ST 6 unarmored targets at an average rate of about 1.5 per turn at 35 attribute points... only 400 XP past starting point using Legacy RAW XP rules.

ST 11 DX 15(18) IQ 9 Longbow Missile Meapons

[hcobb]

Given how cheap Stone Flesh rings are your 35 attribute bowman is going to need a bigger bow.

The Wizard of Oz had it right. Witches wear pointy hats because they're all goblins.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Given how cheap Stone Flesh rings are your 35 attribute bowman is going to need a bigger bow.

Nah. He's a "typical" archer, so he'll have arrows with exploding gems in place of standard arrowheads. Oh, and the arrows be branded, too. Typically.

[tomc]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

The rules in ITL are designed more for a full RPG experience not for min-maxing your combat character. You can use them for that, but you're kind of missing the point in my view.

Our one master rule was that the GM was always right. The players didn't know the rules of their world, and we tried not spend time doing math before making our decisions, and I was playing with big time bridge lovers.

The rules were a framework, and often played as written, but there was variation among weapons, creatures and spells of a similar type. The GM had final say on if you were engaged or not, if you could initiate HTH or not, etc. The Goblin's fire spell was a little better, some wolves were bigger, smaller or nastier than others. It was more fun for us if the players never knew exactly what they were up against.

I think "Your Mileage *Should* Vary."

[RVA_Grandpa]

Okay, I'm too old to care about being embarrassed by my own dumb questions. By definition what kind of character is a "Molly"?

[Jeff Lord]

"Molly" is hcobb's Goblin wizard(ess?). He posits the following:

"My take is that an experienced wizard should have:
No more than 40 attributes (remaining XP into spells and mana and talents)
Have access to the complete spell list, either directly or through scrolls
Succeed in casting spells almost all the time
That list of constraints gives me ST 6, DX 14 and IQ 20.

Where is the error?"

His "Molly" is his attempt to. . . hmmm. . . "optimize" a build for wizards using the RAW. There is some disagreement on these forums as to whether or not this is an advisable build.

[hcobb]

How much would you take from DX to give to ST?

[larsdangly]

2-4 would be prudent, unless you do not anticipate being subjected to 1d or stronger attacks that can't be reliably avoided or blunted with some item you will assume you have.

[larsdangly]

But I think the more general point that should be made in threads of this sort is that arguing over optimal 'builds' goes in the face of what might be TFT's greatest design strength: a remarkable level of balance in the overall value of different character types in tactical combat, despite great diversity in what each type is best at. You can dream up a huge range of fencers, tanks, archers, 'zap' wizards, subtle wizards, kung fu artists and on and on, and when you put them all in arena and tell them to start murdering each other you can't reliably predict who will win. Sure, statistical models will guide you towards a few general principles (moderation is usually better than extremes), but the advantages are modest (ignoring straw-man arguments about obviously weak combatants). The underlying truth is that the game is super balanced, and people's preferences are essentially a matter of taste, or (even better), your whim at the moment to explore a certain character type.

[zot]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My take is that an experienced wizard should have:

1. No more than 40 attributes (remaining XP into spells and mana and talents)
2. Have access to the complete spell list, either directly or through scrolls
3. Succeed in casting spells almost all the time

That list of constraints gives me ST 6, DX 14 and IQ 20.

Where is the error?

No enchanted armor -- maybe +5 leather with +2DX ring?