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Old 03-07-2020, 04:43 PM   #1
hcobb
 
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Default Molly Logic

My take is that an experienced wizard should have:
  1. No more than 40 attributes (remaining XP into spells and mana and talents)
  2. Have access to the complete spell list, either directly or through scrolls
  3. Succeed in casting spells almost all the time
That list of constraints gives me ST 6, DX 14 and IQ 20.

Where is the error?
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Old 03-07-2020, 05:49 PM   #2
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

I don't accept the premise that a 'good' experienced wizard needs to have these traits. If you can accomplish the things that are important to you, then you are a good character.

But, I think most people will agree that a highly experienced wizard of any race will advance more in IQ and/or DX than in ST, if only because the staff is your most important source of spell casting ST. So, a goblin with very high IQ and pretty high DX is certainly good. But given the steep DX penalties to casting thrown spells, there are also situations where that goblin would rather be DX 20, IQ 14. And, of course, a ST 6 character is exceptionally vulnerable to being killed; essentially any attack has a decent chance of offing you in one hit, whereas ST 8-10 combatants will survive all normal hits from all 1-die damage attacks (and most hits from 2-die damage attacks).

So, my response to 'molly' is; 'looks fine if that is what you are into, but be careful out there!'
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Old 03-07-2020, 07:21 PM   #3
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

No error, but you certainly have a bias.

1. TBH, with the Legacy revisions, I would be surprised if wizards bother to acquire more than 36 points in attributes. Spending XP on mana and spells is a much better value.

2. Shouldn't access depend on how magic is controlled in your campaign world? The Wizard's Guild is not typically known for its generosity and openness.

3. This is true and unfortunately highlights one of the issues that TFT has scaling challenges for more experienced characters.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 03-07-2020 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 03-07-2020, 10:05 PM   #4
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

The main error is you posted that to the main forum, in a question from a new player who was asking whether you have to roll 3 dice versus DX to cast a Creation spell, or if it's not automatic.

Seems to me that's entirely inappropriate, borderline abusive, to greet new players with such off-topic nonsense trolling.

I wrote a detailed answer and was on point 12 when I realized I'd been successfully trolled again.
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Old 03-08-2020, 06:32 AM   #5
RobW
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
So, my response to 'molly' is; 'looks fine if that is what you are into, but be careful out there!'
Yes, Molly is the obvious priority target against any group of rational foes, very dangerous yet also vulnerable in the extreme.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
That list of constraints gives me ST 6, DX 14 and IQ 20.

Where is the error?
I'd say you need to add:

4. Enough resilience to survive many hostile encounters.

I don't really see how Molly could possibly survive enough encounters to obtain all that XP. A few petty thieves could easily take her out with their small bows.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:00 AM   #6
David Bofinger
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

I can see where you're coming from here. Yes, the greatest wizards should be able to use all the spells, otherwise what are the high IQ spells for? DX 14 might not be obligatory but I won't quibble over a point or two.

Apparently SJ imagines that later increases in attributes are achieved with wishes, rather than experience. I don't like that idea, but that seems to be what TFT imagines. I think the experience system without wishes is broken, because it limits characters at too low a level of capability.

I think your error is in thinking that a problem with the experience system, or with a subset of the experience system, should be allowed to determine the nature of characters. If you don't like the limits on wizards, change the experience system so more reasonable characters are possible, rather than by distorting characters to fit through a Molly-shaped hole.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:23 AM   #7
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

Note that Evil Stevie did not revise the enchantment system to match the new XP system. So if magic items exist under RAW then Cidri is crawling with Mollies.

Molly fills the role of wizard/thief, and then you have a physicker/flinger with Remove Traps, and the other two party members are light crossbow snipers.

Did I miss anything?
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Old 03-08-2020, 10:07 AM   #8
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

SJ is wisely mute on the 'why's' behind most of these sorts of issues, but attribute bloat is one where he said something, and it was correct: Anyone who has played a lot of classic-edition TFT knows that once characters have 3 stats in the range 15-20 or so, the game is more or less broken, as you now squeezed most of the juice from all of the lemons you've been provided. The new rules say you are allowed all the juice from 1 lemon or most of it from 2, but not from 3. I.e., all character concepts are achieved by choices - you can be whatever you want, but you can't be everything there is all at once. The value of this design concept is a bit like the value of 'class' as a design concept in D&D.

Wishes don't really change this radically because they top out at 14. The most extreme character you can conceive of who gets to the mountain top using wishes might be something like 14, 14, 24: Quite extraordinary by the standards of the current game but completely ordinary and unremarkable in original edition.

The real 'escape hatch' in the rules are magic items. The message, intended or not, is that you can play this game at two extremes: a strict 38-40 point stat limit and more or less 'realistic' PC's who are always flawed and vulnerable in various ways; or, virtually unlimited, cinematic characters who are far beyond the capabilities of any being that lacks magic items.

Too often, discussion of characters of TFT devolves to their melee combat abilities, which I find frankly boring and obvious compared to all the other things characters could be doing. But to stay on that well trod path, it is easy to conceive of a 'max item' character who has a 90+% chance of success at all DX based actions, 20+ points of armor protection, does 4d+ damage per attack (or equivalent), and has an MA that is functionally infinite at the scale of a melee or wizard map. All of this and more is laid out before you in the rules for magic items, and you can choose to have characters that work that way (or any portion of these capabilities) based on the way you distribute items in your setting.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:40 PM   #9
Shostak
 
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Default Re: Molly Logic

To Skarg's and larsdangley's responses, I'll add
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Where is the error?
Here:
Quote:
should
here:
Quote:
No more than 40 attributes
here:
Quote:
Have access to the complete spell list, either directly or through scrolls
here:
Quote:
Succeed in casting spells almost all the time
and thus here:
Quote:
ST 6, DX 14 and IQ 20
Your conclusions suggest that there is a single paradigm to which all wizards would aspire, which is also incorrect. Character concept is everything when it comes to evolving a figure through experience, and even with TFT's limited number of stats, talents, and spells, there is room for a myriad of variations. As for having no more than 40 points in attributes, that is just the point at which it is no longer very efficient to spend XP on stats.
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Old 03-08-2020, 12:48 PM   #10
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Default Re: Molly Logic

Lars wrote: "too often, discussion of characters devolves to their Melee combat abilities, which I find frankly boring and obvious compared to all the other things characters could be doing."

Exactly this.

If all you want is arena combat or very basic dungeon crawling, then Melee and Wizard are pretty much as they always were and will suit your purposes very well.

The rules in ITL are designed more for a full RPG experience not for min-maxing your combat character. You can use them for that, but you're kind of missing the point in my view.
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