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Old 12-06-2019, 06:10 AM   #11
Kromm
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Default Re: Discussion seed - Beatification

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Originally Posted by Michele View Post

This shifts once again the task of naming living people as saints to popular acclamation or to decisions by the church authorities. With a cautionary note. It's possible that the divinity disapproves of "false saints". Trying to become popular in order to gain a reputation as a saint, accepting such an honor without humility, touting the title, or, even worse, striving for the title while secretly not being a faithful believer... that's hybris. It may end with an unexplainable accident.
I love this twist! It's a lot like a government passing laws that must be ratified by . . . well, a god. And deities tend to sign off or not sign off on things in ways that, while subtle, are also rather final. Whence "fear of God."

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Originally Posted by Anders View Post

People can also become saints for political reasons. Constantine, for instance, murdered his wife and son, but he was the first Christian emperor. So, saint.
Which brings up the possibility that a setting could have a lot of saints who were acclaimed differently in the past.

Perhaps before magic returned to the world, before the gods awoke from their 1,000-year slumber, before the Great Evil stirred and the gods were forced to step up their game, or whatever, mortals were on their own with canonization or glorification (of which beatification is actually the second-to-last step). The gods might not perceive time as mortals do, but they probably aren't going to waste whatever resources gods draw upon to do a detailed review of centuries or millennia of what amounts to (from a divine perspective) silly little gold stars and participation trophies. Thus, these "early saints" remain on the rolls – probably over the objections not of gods, but of some fraction of mortals. That's exactly the sort of thing that could lead to schisms, reformations, etc. in the mortal church, explaining multiple denominations, inquisitions, and lots of other fun stuff.

In a fantasy setting, it's quite possible that some or even most mortally canonized saints were in fact bad people who ended up in the Other Place. They were canonized not for good acts, but for politically expedient ones. Which means they might actually be demon lords or whatever today. More radically, if the gods suddenly start taking an interest and do decide to review all the gold stars and participation trophies, they might cast out certain "false saints," whose immortal essence may have accumulated enough power through mortals pleading for intercession (or outright worshiping them) that they're a pain in the divine rear-end and very attractive to Hell's recruiters.

Note that if you subscribe to the whole "early saints were really pagan deities integrated into canon to convert people and keep the peace" theory, what we're talking about here is actually which gods are considered legitimate. That can lead to crusades and the like . . . years of fun, especially for mercenaries such as most PCs in FRPGs.

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Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post

If the church is parceling out sainthoods, I’d lean towards a “I’m pretty sure we couldn’t have pulled that off” conclusion should qualify.
I agree. Whether the gods of a fantasy world are interventionist or distant, they customarily grant FRPG clerics powers and spells. Consequently, temples have not only considerable wealth, influence over the masses, and/or influence over the state – all as in the real world – but also massive amounts of supernatural might. They ought to be forces to be reckoned with. If they can't accomplish something . . . well, it's pretty impressive when one person (or, say, a small adventuring party) can achieve that goal. But that's likely to be one heck of an adventure, the kind that takes years of real-world game sessions to game out and ends in a near-TPK!

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Originally Posted by ArchonShiva View Post

But of course, people rarely become saints until after their deaths, because who knows what they might do next.
That part is important. There's nothing wrong in fantasy with ruling that saints literally ascend out of the mortal sphere as part of the canonization process. That seems logical in a world full of undead and spells like Summon Spirit. That does, of course, mean saints can't be resurrected . . . so PCs might become NPCs upon becoming saints. Once they obtain sainthood, they may well grow in power through the process of being called upon as intercessors or, if the faith permits, through direct adoration. Which means they're like "small gods" (thanks, Pterry), which raises the whole subject of conflict with the real gods, literal demonization, etc. that I mentioned above.
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Old 12-06-2019, 06:55 AM   #12
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Discussion seed - Beatification

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Which means they're like "small gods" (thanks, Pterry), which raises the whole subject of conflict with the real gods, literal demonization, etc. that I mentioned above.
An idea I play around with from time to time when considering "Holy isn't necessarily good" settings is for the gods to be uninvolved in if someone ascends. Essentially, you have some people who - by birth, deed, happenstance, or whatever - are going to eventually ascend to something resembling (or perhaps even surpassing) godhood. The gods try to get ahead of things by converting/suborning the ascendant while they are still apparently mortal, shaping them into a loyal saint (for Holy gods) or demon lord (for Unholy ones). By doing so, they can bring them into their own camp, rather than potentially create a new enemy - and in the case of those who's potential power surpasses the gods', they can be (unknowingly) suppressed to keep them manageable.

For this to work, you generally need such ascendants to be vanishingly rare, so the gods will need to setup methods for extraordinary (but non-ascendant) mortals to become (lesser) saints and demon lords.
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