A question about Tech Levels

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Which messes with TL levels precisely how?

Off the top of my head:

Shape metal+create water+Create Fire can = steam engine (TL5)
Copy spell = printing press (TL4)
Cure disease = antibiotics (TL6) and antiviral drugs (TL7-8)

Yrth has had influx of knowledge from other worlds (we aren't sure if all the humans who arrived there are from the same "Earth") and some ideas date all the way back to the historical middle ages. For example, when doing research on an anthropological paper I found a work written by a 14th century person on the Black Death being 'an invisible living contagion possibly spread by the increase of rats and by the breath of the victims'.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Sure, that's something that sufficient agrarian magic, properly deployed, could do. It's not what will be achieved if "They just notice their crops are starting to fail and then beg for the Church or the overlord to send them a magician to banish the curse. And the answer they get is uncertain and they might just come after the nearest possible witch, stones in hand and hope that fixes it."

And this village has never heard of preventive measures?!

There are times I wish GURPS Middle Ages I was a little more informative then its is. I also wish the planned GURPS Middle Ages II had seen the light of day as that would be a treasure trove with regards to culture on the continent which would have been very useful on Yrth. Though GURPS 4e Crusades is better then nothing.

Culturally Yrth has other problems. Christianity is far too consistent given what happened; it should be more like the mess it was in the 2nd century where it fragmented all over the place. Greek Orthodox Christianity is noticeable by its absence as are many of the heretical forms of Christianity that existed in the c 1095 to c 1212? period that most of the human arrivals come from (see rationalwiki's Basic history of Christianity for the cliff notes on that mess)

Then there is the utter stupidity of 'gunpowder bad; printing press harmless' mentality the wizards had. Sure they woke up to the issues of the printing press being a problems but by that time the horse has left the barn and its foals were having foals.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Off the top of my head:

Shape metal+create water+Create Fire can = steam engine (TL5)

Only once you've invented a steam engine. If you haven't, then combining those elements just gives you a way to make a bomb that requires a wizard who probable knows fireball anyway.

Copy spell = printing press (TL4)

A printing press that summons demons! Printer's devils!

Cure disease = antibiotics (TL6) and antiviral drugs (TL7-8)

Except no way to mass produce them and thus no great impact on public health.

And this village has never heard of preventive measures?!

It doesn't matter whether you've heard of preventative measure if you lack the resources to take them. I should go to the dentist. I'm overdue. I don't have the money to go to the dentist.

Culturally Yrth has other problems. Christianity is far too consistent given what happened; it should be more like the mess it was in the 2nd century where it fragmented all over the place. Greek Orthodox Christianity is noticeable by its absence

Why would Greek Orthodoxy exist when no Greek Orthodox communities were ever banestormed?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

A printing press that summons demons! Printer's devils!

This is true of nearly every spell casting. In fact things should be far worse over on Merlin-1 as spell are cast so often that only Dis itself would have more demons. :-)

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Except no way to mass produce them and thus no great impact on public health.

Mass production is not limited to to TL5 and above. In fact the Romans at TL 2 used fabrica (from which the modern word factory come from) to build their grand structures and supply their armies.

GURPS Fantasy expanded the number of spells that can be enchanted into items. Then there is natural magic.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It doesn't matter whether you've heard of preventative measure if you lack the resources to take them. I should go to the dentist. I'm overdue. I don't have the money to go to the dentist.

The nature of feudal burden is way different from our modern capitalism system. Taxes as we understand them didn't really hit their stride until the Late Middle Ages-Renaissance.

For a somewhat darkly comedic view of the actual Middle Ages I recommend Terry Jones Medieval Lives.

Any feudal lord or Bishop with a brain in his head understands that a happy and healthy community tends to be a loyal community. He rather then the village would pay for the priest (why risk their minds being poisoned by heretical/pagan ideas that could lead to rebellion or the lost of their immortal souls?)

In fact from a feudal lord's position it is a win-win situation. More productive villages on his lands means he can have a larger army then otherwise as the cost of supporting even squires didn't come cheep and knights are insanely expensive.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Why would Greek Orthodoxy exist when no Greek Orthodox communities were ever banestormed?

Cite the page number where it says no Greek Orthodoxy communities were transported to Yrth. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In fact it is very unlikely that even the isolated Roman Catholic communities would be all on the same page as it was. It wasn't until the Renaissance that actual meaningful efforts in standardizing the Baskin Robbins version of Christianity that existed in the countryside occurred.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by maximara

Cite the page number where it says no Greek Orthodoxy communities were transported to Yrth. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

In fact it is very unlikely that even the isolated Roman Catholic communities would be all on the same page as it was. It wasn't until the Renaissance that actual meaningful efforts in standardizing the Baskin Robbins version of Christianity that existed in the countryside occurred.

On pages 8 and 9, it describes which communities are brought to yrth. Specifically western europe, Muslim tribesmen, the celts and Scandinavians of an earlier period, and the decidedly non-Greek mixture that makes up the sahud.

I'm sure Greek, syriac, and coptic Christianity came along, but not in the sort of numbers that would bring political power. Additionally, Megalos is exactly the sort of political body that would standardize their church. So the monolithic megalan church is at least as solid as the ready of yrth. And there is certainly room for the odd heretical faction in history or in the present.

[David Johnston2]

GURPS Fantasy expanded the number of spells that can be enchanted into items. Then there is natural magic.

And if Yrth had invented industrial enchantment magic items that can do that kind of thing would be more than rare treasures frequently warred over and stolen. But it hasn't and most of the enchantment efforts of wizards are directed to aggrandizing their own power. They don't even have mass education.

Any feudal lord or Bishop with a brain in his head understands that a happy and healthy community tends to be a loyal community. He rather then the village would pay for the priest (why risk their minds being poisoned by heretical/pagan ideas that could lead to rebellion or the lost of their immortal souls?)

But how many plant magicians do they have to go around and what other claims do they have on the magician's time? Their resources are limited as well. This kind of reasoning if applied to the real world would make a bunch of nations imaginary because they have food shortages due to logistical and economic issues.

Cite the page number where it says no Greek Orthodoxy communities were transported to Yrth. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It doesn't absolutely say that none were because they didn't want to rule out possibilities but it does say that most of the abductees from Europe were from Western Europe. And in fact it doesn't absolutely say that flavour of Christianity doesn't exist, just that the Megalosian Christianity is the state religion and Caithnite Christianity is a breakaway entity that isn't terribly different.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

And if Yrth had invented industrial enchantment magic items that can do that kind of thing would be more than rare treasures frequently warred over and stolen. But it hasn't and most of the enchantment efforts of wizards are directed to aggrandizing their own power. They don't even have mass education.

Sure the TPTB (including the Wizards Guild) are going to keep as much fabrica under their control as possible but remember it is not industrial enchantment as GURPS defines.

A interesting thing is that, the wizard equivalent of "free companies" (effectively for hire mercenaries) may roam the countryside serving whoever can pay them (it may not just be in terms of money as even mercenary knights needed squires and mages need apprentices). In one case a 16,000 member free company was larger then Edward III's own army!

Then you have priest-wizards who will always be educated. The Church as a matter of practice will want these priests out and about performing magic to the parishioners...all the more incentive for the faithful to tithe more. No matter how hard a monastery tried to set itself away form the wicked world it would find itself pulled into that world. In fact many St. Benedict monasteries got into the curious situation where their poverty, simplicity and devotion attracted a lot of wealth which could (and often did) destroy the very things that attracted the wealth in the first place. This is one of the reasons Henry VIII went after the monasteries in England...they had wealth he needed and they were thanks to that wealth a threat to his power.

To top all this off "In a world of intrinsic magic (pp. 18-19), magical forces may spontaneously create magical objects." (GURPS Fantasy pg 22)

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But how many plant magicians do they have to go around and what other claims do they have on the magician's time? Their resources are limited as well. This kind of reasoning if applied to the real world would make a bunch of nations imaginary because they have food shortages due to logistical and economic issues.

"Powerful or dedicated mages naturally seek out opportunities to pursue their interests or exploit their abilities for profit or amusement – though they may be required to serve their nation, in court or battle, first." (GURPS Banestorm pg 23)

"A peasant youth identified with Magery will usually train under the nearest trusted hedgewitch or wiseman. No sensible lord objects to this, although he may seek to control a serf-born mage’s career: a competent spellcaster earns far more than just another laborer." (GURPS Banestorm pg 24)

Originally Posted by ericthered

On pages 8 and 9, it describes which communities are brought to yrth. Specifically western europe, Muslim tribesmen, the celts and Scandinavians of an earlier period, and the decidedly non-Greek mixture that makes up the sahud.

I'm sure Greek, syriac, and coptic Christianity came along, but not in the sort of numbers that would bring political power. Additionally, Megalos is exactly the sort of political body that would standardize their church. So the monolithic megalan church is at least as solid as the ready of yrth. And there is certainly room for the odd heretical faction in history or in the present.

The problem is even within the Holy Roman Empire Christianity was badly fragmented thanks to the heavy isolation that existed. Maps as we understand them were few and far between and people rarely traveled more then 7 miles from their homes.

GUPRS Fantasy pg 91-96 gives a good overview of the trade between ordinary village (no less then 100 people), Market Villages and Towns (1,000 to 4,999 people)

Even though dealing with heresy was also one of the Spanish Inquisition's duties they found the Christianity out in the countryside almost alien compared to the by the book version they were familiar with. And this was the days when the Renaissance was a thing.