.280 British Stats?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ji ji

“Without any effect” means that the subject keeps on fighting without noticeable loss of performance for several minutes.

Right OK that makes more sense.

So really we are just talking about a dissatisfaction regarding a lack of instant kill or instant incapacitation. So we're talking about "stopping power", and well a lot of ink, digital and otherwise has been spilt on that.

A lot of bullet wounds don't immediately incapacitate or kill, and while obviously the specifics of the weight, dimension and speed of the bullet are relevant to the chances of it happening.

A). It not always in the way you might suppose

B). There's many other factors that influence it, and even at times out weigh it

C). there's still no round out of a hand held weapon* that guarantees it

D). There are other factors in ongoing rifleman combat effectiveness in an engagement than a single bullet's "stopping power" especially when you take A, B & C into account.

But everything is a compromise here, and that includes organisational compromises that might well detract from end user ability i.e "in a perfect world...". All bullets and in fact all the weapons firing them are effected by this but it's not definite that the 5.56 actually looses out here in total, or more relevantly by enough to warrant concern.

Another point that I touched on is different contexts of use. The point about the post WW2 decision that all that full rifle calibre range not being needed has been made. Generally speaking it's true. It is however more true if you are fighting in Vietnam or Basra, than say the valleys of Afghanistan were engagement ranges may be longer.



*by the way I keep saying "handheld" here because firstly it what we're talking about and secondly if I don't some one will get all 'internet' on me ;-)

Originally Posted by Ji ji

I expect that this same subject will be less than happy to be punched through and bleeding and so on, in a longer timeframe - even just fifteen minutes. A lot of effect for sure, but not relevant to the expected performance. It’s like an affliction with plenty of effect any 5 minutes onset limitation: very useful in many situation, potentially useless in a combat one.
Of course, I am debating assuming that these multiple reports are dependable, but I don’t know if they truly are.

Well that is also an issue, not just in with the description of what actually happened and why it happened (two different things) but because a lot of the anecdotes come with a spoken or unspoken "....but if I hit them with an X they'd have fallen down instantly" assertion.

But when we were shooting 7.62 or .303 or 7.92 or what ever at each other, it's not like anyone any of these bullets came into contact with dropped dead instantly. As I said earlier there are just too many variables here, and to be frank in the middle of combat is a really hard time to assess there combined effect.

Originally Posted by Ji ji

How probable is that a 1500-2000 joule (at muzzle) is so ineffective? Well, bullet energy is a function of mass and velocity; energy transfer from the bullet to the target depends on many other factors and the cross-section is very important. I think that the alleged problem of 5.56 is in low efficiency of energy transfer due to the small cross section and the lack of deformation. If so, the resulting shock could be minimal.

Well Like I said it gets complicated, yes the 5.56x45 has a smaller cross-section and a smaller wound track than a 7.62x51mm assuming both act in exactly the same way. But as Rupert points out that's not necessarily an assumption you can make. Moreover I understand the 5.56 being a lighter, smaller bullet is more likely to deform or fragment than the larger heavier 7.62 (although like everything it's still not guaranteed). Partly due to the differences in dimensions and partly due to the fact that the 5.56 tends to be faster than the 7.62. That velocity of impact also being a factor of effect.

Then you get into questions like can both bullets dump all their energy into the target body? If they can't or they can't do so proportionally that extra 7.62 energy may not be the proportional advantage we might think it is.

Then there's the question that yes more energy is more energy and an energetic bullet going through us is of course a bad thing. But there are all sorts of complicating factors here because the human body is pretty varied subject for this energy to work on. Especially when the bar to clear here is "they instantly fell over".

So it's easy to say the 7.62 has greater energy than the 5.56 in abstract, but it's harder to say because the 7.62 has approx 1.5x as much energy it does 1.5x as much damage or incapacitates your target 1.5x as quickly, or even that it's enough to ensure they fall over instantly in comparison to the unsatisfactory delay from the 5.56..

Originally Posted by Ji ji

By the way, I know of a single report about a man shot by a .454 Casull, and it was a devastating wound. This is hardly surprising: such cartridge has some more energy than a 5.56 but way less penetration, so it is much more efficient at transferring energy.

....

Well go and look at what Rupert said about the 7.62 ;-)!

But you are definitely right different combinations of bullet mass, dimension and velocity will all give more varied effects on your target than just the 1/2Mass x Velocity^2 value.


However as above energy transfer is complicated and there are lots of factors here.

There are reasons why riflemen generally speaking firing fast small rifle bullets at each other (even if some are smaller and faster than others). Rather than firing slow and proportionally massive rounds like .454 casul. That's a trend that has been ongoing in military infantry weapons for a long time!

However the question to ask isn't do .454 casul leave devastating wounds (because of course they can, but well so can 5.56) but all else being equal** do people shot by .454 casul drop that much more immediately than those shot by 5.56. I.e take all those anecdotes you've been reading do you think you can assume that if the people in question had managed to hit their target with a .454 casul instead of 5.56 they'd be saying 'oh and they dropped as fast as I both expected and wanted'.



**and they may not be due to other reasons related to the different rounds, the .454 casul might do lots of damage to flesh when it hits, but might well have other downsides that negtively effect getting to that point