Talents And Spellcasting Talents: How Do They Stack?

[scc]

Spellcasting Talent for those who don't know is a term from DFRPG and is used to refer to the various Advantages like Magery that improve spellcasting ability.

Now there are several ordinary Talents that could effect the casting of spells, some are general, like those that effect Religious Ritual, Ritual Magic and Symbol Drawing, but others are more specific, like how can Close to Hell not make it easier to cast Summon Demon?

So is there a limit on how big a bonus I can have for having both Magery and Close to Hell when casting Summon Demon? Do I just add my Magery and Close to Hell levels together, even if this means a bonus of +10 (+6 for Magery 6 [the highest given in a supplement] and +4 for 4 levels of Close to Hell)

What about when learning spells via Time Spent? Both Magery and Talent reduce time needed to earn a point against a spell by -10% per level, maxing out at -40%, so if I have Magery 4 and Close to Hell 4 I could earn a point for Summon Demon in only 40 hours!

[Imbicatus]

Close to hell is explicit on what it’s bonuses cover. It is 6 skills and reaction rolls from demons. I’d does not cover any spell casting at all. To cast summon demon you would only have magery. Close to hell would make the demon more likely to help you once you summoned it though.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Imbicatus

Close to hell is explicit on what it’s bonuses cover. It is 6 skills and reaction rolls from demons. I’d does not cover any spell casting at all. To cast summon demon you would only have magery. Close to hell would make the demon more likely to help you once you summoned it though.

Exactly.

Close to Hell is not a supernatural ability; it's about thinking like a demon, and represents a state of mind. Being good with Summon Demon is a question of being good with magic . . . Close to Hell doesn't help with that, any more than Born War Leader gives a bonus to cast Bravery and Great Voice. BUT, just as Born War Leader gives a reaction bonus with literally all professional fighters, Close to Hell gives a reaction bonus with demons, who are normally very hard to deal with. It works on the social plane, not the supernatural one.

The very important detail to note is that demons mostly have Indomitable, and thus are immune to Influence skills unless the would-be influencer has Spirit Empathy. Spirit Empathy (Specialized, Demons, -50%) is mandatory for demonologists, who also have access to Diplomacy, Fast-Talk, and Intimidation; Spirit Empathy (Unholy, -10%) is an option for evil clerics, who also have mandatory Intimidation. And "All your personal reaction modifiers" apply to Influence rolls – so Close to Hell means these evil types have a fighting chance to bully demons by messing with their heads, without resorting to fatiguing magic.

The other cool thing is the bonus to Exorcism. This has interesting ramifications in light of Unholy Skills (Dungeon Fantasy 3, p. 41). In brief, it presents another way to influence demons without spending energy.

[scc]

I probably should have said this before but Close to Hell and Summon Demon is an example, Artificer could affect Schematic and Rebuild.

And maybe I was taking the name to literally by assuming that it indicated something like infernal descent.

As for Close to Hell and Exorcism, wouldn't the Banish spell be better most of the time? If not all of the time?

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by scc

As for Close to Hell and Exorcism, wouldn't the Banish spell be better most of the time? If not all of the time?

Not necessarily.

First of all, the energy cost of Banish can be expensive. If given the option, I'd try Exorcism first, then Banish as the last resort. If I try to banish a standard 200 CP demon and fail, I've spent 20 energy. That commits a LOT to that attempt, because if the demon decides to eat my aorta, I don't have much energy left for using spells to fight it off with.

Also, Banish implies an extra-dimensional visitor right in front of you - essentially something you can attack. A spirit haunting a house could more easily hide from a Banish spell, but you can perform an Exorcism on a haunted place even if the spirit won't come out for you to fight. So Exorcism has a little more leeway for things like haunted places or possessed items, and so on.

[Kromm]

Also, as there's no Control Demon spell, Exorcism is just about the only way for an evil cleric to bind to service a demon they didn't personally summon.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Railstar

Not necessarily.

First of all, the energy cost of Banish can be expensive. If given the option, I'd try Exorcism first, then Banish as the last resort. If I try to banish a standard 200 CP demon and fail, I've spent 20 energy. That commits a LOT to that attempt, because if the demon decides to eat my aorta, I don't have much energy left for using spells to fight it off with.

Also, Banish implies an extra-dimensional visitor right in front of you - essentially something you can attack. A spirit haunting a house could more easily hide from a Banish spell, but you can perform an Exorcism on a haunted place even if the spirit won't come out for you to fight. So Exorcism has a little more leeway for things like haunted places or possessed items, and so on.

For an item I'd assume that Banish would work.

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Also, as there's no Control Demon spell, Exorcism is just about the only way for an evil cleric to bind to service a demon they didn't personally summon.

I never knew Exorcism could also be used to bind demons. That could make the skill vastly more in demand among the dark spellcaster types.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Railstar

I never knew Exorcism could also be used to bind demons. That could make the skill vastly more in demand among the dark spellcaster types.

It's a special rule for evil clerics and unholy warriors, found in Unholy Skills (Dungeon Fantasy 3, p. 41). It lets those with Unholy Might use their Exorcism skill . . . creatively.

[Praxian]

The only thing I can think of that -MIGHT- work for "Magic" and "Talents" to stack, would be if you took "Magery" and the talent from Fantasy p.159 - Magic Powers. Make your "Ally" (who would have to be summonable with the Magical or Magic Powers modifier - make sure you take Extremely Potent to go with the Magic Powers) for the two.

Now I'm not 100% if the two would mix / work well together - could be you'd just get the +1 to +4 from the Magic Powers talent, but the argument -could- be made it's all magic, and you'd also get the bonus from the Magery.

What would your take on that one be Kromm?