Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

[Kalzazz]

Depends on where you are. In Austin where SJGames is it is year round barring unexpectedly bad weather, in other places not so much

Though I admit, I personally won't wear anything as heavy as jeans unless I am forced to by gainful employment, I can't stand jeans or the heavy work pants. I'll wear soft khakis, ultra light moisture wicking fishing pants, or super soft athletic pants. No jeans.

The material my state uniform was made of wasn't as heavy or stiff as generic 'Western and Work Store' type jeans. I've worn jeans unfortunately many a times, but always because of employers or parents encouraging it, or because was a formal type occasion where jeans were considered a requirement for social acceptability.

So, hmmm, I think fashion is just weird, as I have a hard time imagining jeans being considered 'summer wear' since they are thick, stiff, and can easily retain heat and moisture, but, people wear them in the summer!

[Crakkerjakk]

Depends on the jeans. Most fashionable jeans are fairly light and pliable, but still hotter than I would want to wear anywhere 90+.

Oh, and as for moisture wicking socks, check out Darn Tough of Vermont. Their socks are AMAZING (though expensive) and come with a lifetime warranty.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

Depends on the jeans. Most fashionable jeans are fairly light and pliable, but still hotter than I would want to wear anywhere 90+.

Also, people are relatively insensitive to leg heat, and frequently there are things that are a higher priority than keeping your legs cool, such as protecting them from the local brush.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

I'd say it depends on how heavy the shirt is (light long or short sleeve could be summer, heavier could be ordinary, and actually heavy long sleeve could get into cold weather), and I'd say the pants would have to be lighter than most jeans or instead of pants be shorts.

Good point.

I'd think that wearing an actual shirt moves this a lot closer to Ordinary Clothing. A cotton t-shirt feels like Summer Clothing for the upper body to me. Jeans are Ordinary Clothing for the legs, so to me the combo suggests a cross between the two.

I think Summer Clothing is usually between Holdout -2 to Holdout -4 (with Holdout -5 to -7 being Las Vegas showgirl to full nudity). Jeans and a t-shirt are certainly more challenging CCW wear than most ordinary uniforms or work clothing, but I'm still undecided on whether to give them Holdout -1 or -2.

Probably it depends on the cut and materials. Slim-fit jeans and a tight t-shirt are very tough to hide anything in and would most likely rate -2 Holdout at minimum (but would also cause a lot of security to spend less time eyeballing you, as "you clearly couldn't hide a weapon").

Baggy jeans and a far too large t-shirt might even reach Holdout 0. In between and fairly normal jeans and t-shirt combos are probably Holdout -1 for a weapon at the waist (Holdout -2 if you try to conceal it in a shoulder holster or otherwise hide it on your torso somehow, but a CCW vest worn under the t-shirt would add its normal +2 to counter that).

[cbower]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In the US, I bought a lot of sport socks designed to wick away sweat and just breathe in general, because I am an arctic creature and do not respond well to 100° F heat and massive humidity.

Why, just this summer we had a whole week in July of sub-90° temps here in Alabama. It was like Christmas.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

So maybe a -1 to Fast-Draw is fairer. I'm looking to see what opinion other forumites have of this.

I can only give my own experience on this. I carry a pistol when I go hiking in case my dogs are attacked by coyotes. Since I don't really feel like alarming other hikers or people I meet on the way to the trail (like when I stop for gas), I carry it concealed on my hip. Since coyotes are not something that I expect will take me down in less than a second, I carry the gun without a round in the chamber. Nevertheless, I've occasionally practiced quickly drawing my pistol. It seems that with just a little practice, I can draw and rack the slide about as fast as just drawing. A typical drawing motion first carries the pistol up out of the holster, and then forward into a firing stance. The racking of the slide occurs in the second part of this as you push the pistol forward with the right hand on the grip. Your left hand grabs the slide and retards it as the rest of the gun goes forward, chambering a round. Since it is part of the drawing action, it doesn't seem noticeably slower.

There are a lot of howevers to this though. I haven't actually timed any of this, it is just a rough guess. Also, this was all in non-stressful conditions where I could concentrate on the practice; the situation might be quite a bit different if I needed to suddely respond to an actual threat. So while I would give a best guess of no penalty, there is a lot of wiggle room for changing the numbers around.

Luke

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Good point.

I'd think that wearing an actual shirt moves this a lot closer to Ordinary Clothing. A cotton t-shirt feels like Summer Clothing for the upper body to me. Jeans are Ordinary Clothing for the legs, so to me the combo suggests a cross between the two.

I think Summer Clothing is usually between Holdout -2 to Holdout -4 (with Holdout -5 to -7 being Las Vegas showgirl to full nudity). Jeans and a t-shirt are certainly more challenging CCW wear than most ordinary uniforms or work clothing, but I'm still undecided on whether to give them Holdout -1 or -2.

Probably it depends on the cut and materials. Slim-fit jeans and a tight t-shirt are very tough to hide anything in and would most likely rate -2 Holdout at minimum (but would also cause a lot of security to spend less time eyeballing you, as "you clearly couldn't hide a weapon").

Baggy jeans and a far too large t-shirt might even reach Holdout 0. In between and fairly normal jeans and t-shirt combos are probably Holdout -1 for a weapon at the waist (Holdout -2 if you try to conceal it in a shoulder holster or otherwise hide it on your torso somehow, but a CCW vest worn under the t-shirt would add its normal +2 to counter that).

My guess is that it is not so much the weight of the clothes as how closely they conform to your body. A light t-shirt that is still all drapey around you could actually be better for holdout than an expertly tailored and spiffy-looking suit with jacket that clung to your figure.

Luke

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

I can only give my own experience on this. I carry a pistol when I go hiking in case my dogs are attacked by coyotes. Since I don't really feel like alarming other hikers or people I meet on the way to the trail (like when I stop for gas), I carry it concealed on my hip. Since coyotes are not something that I expect will take me down in less than a second, I carry the gun without a round in the chamber. Nevertheless, I've occasionally practiced quickly drawing my pistol. It seems that with just a little practice, I can draw and rack the slide about as fast as just drawing. A typical drawing motion first carries the pistol up out of the holster, and then forward into a firing stance. The racking of the slide occurs in the second part of this as you push the pistol forward with the right hand on the grip. Your left hand grabs the slide and retards it as the rest of the gun goes forward, chambering a round. Since it is part of the drawing action, it doesn't seem noticeably slower.

There are a lot of howevers to this though. I haven't actually timed any of this, it is just a rough guess. Also, this was all in non-stressful conditions where I could concentrate on the practice; the situation might be quite a bit different if I needed to suddely respond to an actual threat. So while I would give a best guess of no penalty, there is a lot of wiggle room for changing the numbers around.

Luke

IME, it's not slower. It's just more complicated, and especially if you're wearing clothes over the top of your holster it's a bit fiddly to use the off hand to pull the clothes out of the way, use your strong hand to draw, then use the weak hand ALSO to rack the slide as the weapon is coming up. It can certainly be done, but I definitely think it's harder (though the kind of thing that should certainly be possible to be bought off with a technique or perk, at least partially.)

And also, of course, you don't always punch out when you draw. If you're drawing to hit someone in arms reach, you fire from your chest generally.

[Dragondog]

Ordinary Clothes is "At minimum: undergarments, plus a tunic, blouse, or shirt with hose, skirt, or trousers – or along tunic, robe, or dress – and suitable footwear." (B266) That sounds like more than jeans and t-shirt to me. More like shirt, pants (possibly jeans), and footwear. At minimum.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I think I'd rule that anyone wanting better concealment than the +1 for the Undercover Holster has to talk to his tailor and get clothing designed for it.

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

1.) FWIW I would think that the high end, perhaps +2 to Holdout holsters, would have to be tailored to the individual and perhaps even to a specific outfit.

Sounds like Equipment Bond to me.