Concealed Carry (CCW), Undercover Holsters, Holdout, IWB and real-world models

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I agree with Lwcamp that it's normal.

Of course, this is Florida and the last time I tucked my shirt in was for a funeral. It's the guy in suit and tie that's conspicuous. There were only 3 at said funeral and one was the preacher and another was the music director. Some of the men didn't even wear button-front shirts.

Suit and tie would mean Lawyer, Pharmceutical sales rep, preacher or plainclothes detective to me.

On the humid mid-to-lower East Coast in summer, I wore a suit for one wedding and I prayed for death. Reasonable clothing is a t-shirt and shorts, at most.

But in that kind of weather, characters probably ought to accept looking out of place (and suffering discomfort and possibly even higher FP costs) if they want to carry concealed weapons without a significant challenge in the form of Holdout penalties.

I'm pretty sure that my standard outfit during my sojourn in Virginia, DC, Maryland and slightly less hellish places a few hours north would impose Holdout -2 to most common CCW methods.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You might also consider some newish types of clothing like cargo pants. A .380 can fit in one of the big front pockets of those and bulge no more than a wallet. Not even a fat wallet either. It's not even a bad place to draw from. If I was a cop I'd worry about things like this.

Yep, cargo pants are definitely useful Holdout clothing and combined with a thick untucked shirt might rate Holdout +2 for IWB carry and +1 for OWB carry, as well as being +1 Holdout for keeping a suitably gun in your pocket (purpose-designed models exist with an additional Holdout +2 and the possibility of a full-sized handgun, as per Tactical Shooting p. 73).

[Icelander]

Moving on to some concrete examples, for the game I'm starting set in the Middle Euphrates area of Iraq at the end of 2011:

PC1: WO2 Anthony 'Taz' Walker, a veteran investigator and Senior Sergeant of the Queensland Police Service in civilian life, he is also a member of the Australian Army Reserve serving with the Australian Defence Force Investigative Service (ADFIS). Officially in-country as a civilian contractor with the US State Department's Police Development Program.

Taz is prone to wearing khaki- or tobacco-coloured cargo shorts and colourful tropical shirts, never tucked in and often not completely buttoned. He wears socks with his sandals, but because his wife insists, they are at least sweat-wicking comfortable hiking socks for warm weather.

The intent is that the cargo shorts are Kakadu CCW wear thata have been modified for him by his wife, by taking out the pocket sized for a compact pistol so that his Browning service pistol will fit in there. This will give the usual +2 Holdout for Undercover Clothing (with the larger Browning having Bulk -2 instead of the Bulk -1 of a smaller weapon that is usually kept in such a pocket), but what modifier does the outfit give before applying that?

We've got a Bulk -2 pistol that is hidden with Undercover Clothing for a +2 (equipment) bonus to Holdout. Then I'm inclined to allow sewing by the wife in order to accomodate specifically this pistol by this person to count as Good-quality Undercover Clothing, for an extra +1 (quality) to Holdout.

So far, we've got +1 to Holdout. But because he's not wearing a whole lot of clothing to begin with and he's going to have the shorts moving oddly because of the bulky weight sewed in the pocket, there will be some basic Holdout penalty for the outfit. This can also be a good thing, of course, in that the outfit appears very non-threathening and absolutely not what someone would pick to carry a concealed weapon.

I'm not sure whether wearing cargo shorts and a half-open tropical shirt would count as Holdout -1 or Holdout -2 for a pistol kept at waist level or slightly lower in a pocket. What do other forumites think?

Edit-post-Edit: After realising that Holdout will usually be used to resist physical Search and Observation at a penalty, I decided that his clothing would qualify for -3 Holdout. It is not thick enough for proper CCW and he'll thus be at Holdout-2 for his weapons.

With skill 14, Taz still has an effective skill 12 to conceal his Browning and Monadknock Detective model 16" extendable baton.

Edit: Related to this, carrying a pistol in Condition Three (without a round chambered; sometimes called the 'Israeli Method') probably ought to mean that drawing it quickly is slightly more difficult than if you carry it in Condition One (round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on). Would it be fair to give a -1 to Fast-Draw if you have to rack the slide as you draw the weapon?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He wears socks with his sandals, but because his wife insists,

Is she a Pom? Wearing socks with sandals is considered hilariously unstylish and inappropriate by most Australians.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Agemegos

Is she a Pom? Wearing socks with sandals is considered hilariously unstylish and inappropriate by most Australians.

She is Kerala-born, a naturally elegant beauty and would never suggest such a solecism as wearing socks with sandals. Initially, she tried to get him to wear tasteful loafers, at least, but has long ago lost all hope that he will ever dress appropriately or professionally. She merely insist that if her husband is bound and determined to appear laughable, he takes care to wear socks that provide a modicum of support, minimise foot odour and reduce the risk of fungi.

Taz, on the other hand, is widely considered hilariously unstylish by most everyone who has ever worked with him, associated with him or even met him. In GURPS terms, reflected by the Fashion Disaster Quirk.

Wearing socks with his hiking sandals is what he perceives as dressing up for work. When off-duty, he wears lighter sandals and no socks.

[Crakkerjakk]

To the best of my knowledge, Milt Sparks makes pretty much the best commercially available (handmade) IWB holsters, and their spendy ones run about $125.

And I think carrying a weapon condition 3 would justify at least a -1 to FD if you want to rack the slide as you draw.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

To the best of my knowledge, Milt Sparks makes pretty much the best commercially available (handmade) IWB holsters, and their spendy ones run about $125.

That argues that Undercover Holsters are not commercially available in higher quality levels. I think I'd rule that anyone wanting better concealment than the +1 for the Undercover Holster has to talk to his tailor and get clothing designed for it.

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

And I think carrying a weapon condition 3 would justify at least a -1 to FD if you want to rack the slide as you draw.

Should it maybe be -2, the standard penalty in GURPS for doing two things at once?

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

1.) FWIW I would think that the high end, perhaps +2 to Holdout holsters, would have to be tailored to the individual and perhaps even to a specific outfit.

IIRC in Ian Fleming's "Doctor No" (the book, not the movie) there was a scene in which such personal holster-tailoring was discussed. While "Dr. No" is fiction, Fleming at least was in and around SOE during the war so would have some knowledge of the subject.

Also, apparently Fleming was in correspondence with Geoffrey Boothroyd, consultant to HMG on firearms.

2.) As far as the cargo pants/.380 combo, IIRC there are holsters designed to hold a small automatic and mimic the "print" of a fat wallet. Don't think any are designed for the Browning HP, tho'.

3.) One problem with the HP is that as a weapon with a double-column magazine it's rather fat. Compare it side by side with a Colt 1911 model or variant and you'll notice the difference. Fat = larger "print" through garments.

Conclusion -- proper concealment depends on the correct mix of weapon, holster, wardrobe, and knowing how to use all the above. Hence "Holdout" is indeed a justifiable skill.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

1.) FWIW I would think that the high end, perhaps +2 to Holdout holsters, would have to be tailored to the individual and perhaps even to a specific outfit.

IIRC in Ian Fleming's "Doctor No" (the book, not the movie) there was a scene in which such personal holster-tailoring was discussed. While "Dr. No" is fiction, Fleming at least was in and around SOE during the war so would have some knowledge of the subject.

Also, apparently Fleming was in correspondence with Geoffrey Boothroyd, consultant to HMG on firearms.

I'd think that in game terms, this was reflected by using an Undercover Holster in combination with an outfit tailored (as Undercover Clothing) to give +1 to +2 (quality) to Holdout. You can even get up to +5 additional bonus to Holdout for choosing an outfit that lends itself to concealment, though the +5 for a full Carmelite nun habit probably also means a penalty to Fast-Draw... :)

I don't know what kind of outfits would constitute +1 or +2 to Holdout, though, and if they all ought to give a penalty to Fast-Draw. In general, I'd think that the higher Holdout bonuses for wearing a lot of clothing ought to give negative Fast-Draw modifiers, but maybe it's not until Holdout +2 that you have to accept one.

I don't know. Which is the purpose of this thread, to get more views and try to work out how the spectrum of available outfits and clothing works with Holdout and Fast-Draw skills.

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

2.) As far as the cargo pants/.380 combo, IIRC there are holsters designed to hold a small automatic and mimic the "print" of a fat wallet. Don't think any are designed for the Browning HP, tho'.

You can surely get them made, however.

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

3.) One problem with the HP is that as a weapon with a double-column magazine it's rather fat. Compare it side by side with a Colt 1911 model or variant and you'll notice the difference. Fat = larger "print" through garments.

The Browning HP is certainly not the best choice for CCW, but it's what this character is used to and comfortable with. All in all, I don't think it's any worse than a Glock 17, which can also be concealed at Holdout -2, so it's at least possible.

I guess the character will have a handsewn leather pocket/undercover holster for it and keep it in a pocket designed for it in a purpose-built pair of CCW cargo shorts. Total Holdout +1 (+1 Pocket Holster, +2 CCW Clothing, -2 Bulk) and then the modifier for the shorts + flapping open tropical shirt outfit, which is either -2 Holdout or -1 Holdout. The final modifier will be either +1 to Holdout skill or no modifier to Holdout skill.

Fast-Draw will be -2 for the pocket carry and either -1 or -2 for carrying in Condition Three.

Originally Posted by fredtheobviouspseudonym

Conclusion -- proper concealment depends on the correct mix of weapon, holster, wardrobe, and knowing how to use all the above. Hence "Holdout" is indeed a justifiable skill.

I agree.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Edit: Related to this, carrying a pistol in Condition Three (without a round chambered; sometimes called the 'Israeli Method') probably ought to mean that drawing it quickly is slightly more difficult than if you carry it in Condition One (round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on). Would it be fair to give a -1 to Fast-Draw if you have to rack the slide as you draw the weapon?

Tactical Shooting p8 says explicitly that you can ready a pistol in condition 3 with Fast-Draw at no penalty. The job does normally take two hands, and can't be done silently.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That argues that Undercover Holsters are not commercially available in higher quality levels. I think I'd rule that anyone wanting better concealment than the +1 for the Undercover Holster has to talk to his tailor and get clothing designed for it.


Should it maybe be -2, the standard penalty in GURPS for doing two things at once?

I'd say it just indicates that Undercover holsters are too expensive. You can get an okay IWB tuckable for $50-75. I'd call a Milt Sparks a Fine Undercover Holster.

And yeah, I'd say -2sounds about right.