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Old 05-14-2012, 03:56 PM   #61
Mister Negative
 
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by digoraccoon View Post
In my experience, non-super powered heroes can keep up with the team when they invest in a good mix of skills and equipment, then play the fight intelligently.

Tying this back into the original post (not that it was off-topic or anything), you can have highly differing power levels within a party, but you really, really need players who are happy with getting their spotlight moments in different scenes.


Fundamentally, someone like the Black Widow or Hawkeye just isn't going to be as effective in most fights as Cap, Shell-head, Thor, or Hulk. The 'normals' are going to have to be much more defensive, much more selective in their attacks, and are going to have to do ALL they can to minimize their exposure to buckets of dice of damage. One bad defense roll (or one attack that ignores defenses) and the same threat that knocks down Cap will take them out.

On the other hand, if you have players that are happy with being 'background noise' in the melee, they can stand out in other scenes or in other ways. Taking examples from the Avengers (both good and bad):

Spoiler:  

The problem with an RPG is that most of the time, everybody seems to want to be useful all of the time. Nobody wants to be the guy who sits in the corner and glowers when talky-thinky stuff is going on, and nobody wants to be the guy who heads for cover when all hell breaks loose. This is particularly evident in superhero RPGs. Folks like Tony and Bruce have got it best. They have one skill set which they get to throw around in combat, and a different one for use in non-combat scenes. If you have players who are happy being dialed up in some scenes, and dialed down in others, though, you're golden.
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Last edited by PK; 05-14-2012 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Switching spoiler over to [SPOILER] tag
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:17 PM   #62
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

Not to mention that players in an RPG can directly affect what they're going to do that session.
This is most pronounced with characters built for combat. (That often have players least inclined towards scheming, roleplaying, or patience.) If the brick picks a fight, there's going to be a fight. Even if nearly everyone else would prefer to avoid it.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:28 PM   #63
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Not to mention that players in an RPG can directly affect what they're going to do that session.
This is most pronounced with characters built for combat. (That often have players least inclined towards scheming, roleplaying, or patience.) If the brick picks a fight, there's going to be a fight. Even if nearly everyone else would prefer to avoid it.
In my circle, players who impose their will on the other players in that way get voted off the island. I'm quite serious: I have had all the other players in a campaign say that one player had to stop doing what they were doing if the campaign was to continue, and when I put the case to that one player, they resigned rather than change. I do expect players to put at least some thought into making sure the game is fun for the other players.

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Old 05-14-2012, 08:35 PM   #64
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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In my circle, players who impose their will on the other players in that way get voted off the island.
Amen to that. When I was a younger and less experienced GM, I used to think that fair play meant letting anyone do whatever they want, then gaming out the results, no matter how badly it destroyed the plot and the fun and enjoyment of other players. Eventually, I realized that the only reason we play these games is to have fun, so if one person's "fun" is five other people's "ruined evening," then Person A needs to change or leave.

Fortunately, in the rare times this has come up, it's always been "change." In some cases, they didn't realize they were ruining everyone's fun. In others, they did, but didn't realize that it was such a big deal. And in yet others, they would've preferred to keep being jerks, but really didn't want to leave the group. (Though in the last case, she ended up quitting over something else a while later, unsurprisingly.)
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:38 PM   #65
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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In my circle, players who impose their will on the other players in that way get voted off the island.
Separately from this, starting random fights is very rarely productive, and has a decent chance of resulting in a beatdown (particularly if the other PCs are not inclined to assist the aggressive one).
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:53 AM   #66
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Originally Posted by Mister Negative View Post
Tying this back into the original post (not that it was off-topic or anything), you can have highly differing power levels within a party, but you really, really need players who are happy with getting their spotlight moments in different scenes.
Yes, that is a good point. For characters to work as a team, you need players who'll work as a team, sharing the spotlight when they have varying power levels.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:45 AM   #67
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

I think a group of mixed-power characters can all be useful, but of course it depends on the opposition. Many times in comics there is a mastermind who is controlling the unstoppable juggernaught or horde or powerful minions that are going to destroy Townsville. So, there are foes for tanks to fight, many minions for the scrappers to fight, but someone has to defeat the mastermind in the middle of the battle... that's what characters like Batman/Black Widow/Hawkeye/Mister Terrific are for in the midst of a battle. In fact, that mission is probably the most important part of the climactic scene.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:39 PM   #68
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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Yes, that is a good point. For characters to work as a team, you need players who'll work as a team, sharing the spotlight when they have varying power levels.
+1

IMX it's rarely so cut and dry as one person deliberately ruining other people's fun. (I have no compunctions about booting such a player.)
I've run into marginal cases far more often. Say there are three feasible ways to attack a problem, and three characters with their own preferences of which to use. One is going to get his way, the other two are not, all three have a valid claim to the spotlight, and everybody in the party is going to have to live with the consequences.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:23 PM   #69
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

I have played tons of Supers games, mostly Champions but also V&V, Pallidium Hero, Marvel and GURPS 3E. Missing at least one more but cant recall the name of it. Early 80s.
Most groups were mixed groups though typically similar power level (except for two random systems) and people had fun as long as the GM remembered to give them all something to do.

Mage types or Cosmic Variable Power Pools or Modular Abilities were the worst because they could usually do anyone elses job good enough.
Mentalists were not game breakers but tricky to manage as they could circumvent many plots and end tough fights quickly or get themselves taken out just as quickly depending on how it was handled. They seldom had a natural middle ground so were discouraged by the game system and the group.
Skill types often got most spotlight outside combat and that could be the same problem as Hackers or Riggers in Cyberpunk/Shadow Run games. While they were doing their thing everyone else was eating pizza.
You had to manage time with them carefully, even if not the foes.
Speedsters could get a lot of spotlight but usually they didn't hit hard enough to take out the big guns. They needed lots of Mooks to shine but the bit about them getting to fights or other action was sometimes an issue.
We typically addressed that by a good vehicle or maybe the speedster had a movement power that worked on others. This was good with teleporters or shapeshifters who could carry the rest of the team.
However the ability to bring people to a fight often meant they were less powerful once they got there.
In 4E (never played Supers in 4E but would love to see how it works) I would look at Payload as my go to to help here.
Though a good teleporter still is a strong option.
The thing is speedsters rarely had the power and defense to decide the big battles but they did come with a lot of game time becasue of the extra actions and movement.

Bricks and Blasters tended to be about equal.
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Old 05-19-2012, 05:28 PM   #70
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Default Re: differing power levels within a party: The Avengers

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In my circle, players who impose their will on the other players in that way get voted off the island. I'm quite serious: I have had all the other players in a campaign say that one player had to stop doing what they were doing if the campaign was to continue, and when I put the case to that one player, they resigned rather than change. I do expect players to put at least some thought into making sure the game is fun for the other players.
As with other types of anti-social behavior, it's best to nip such quickly, I suppose.

"voted off the island" was an unexpected allusion *g*
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