Unliving/Homogenous creatures' ST/HP

[kirbwarrior]

So, it seems to be assumed in gurps that an unliving thing has 2x HP of that of normal things, while homogenous is x4

Does this mean that a creature with homogenous (for example, golem or dryad) should have 4x the HP their size says? Such as a human sized clay golem having at least 4x HP of a human? Does this mean they should have they high of ST?

I was looking over my dryad templates and it occurred to me they might need to have far more ST than I gave them.

Thanks ahead of time.

[vierasmarius]

That's actually a very interesting question. The vehicles rules seem to assume that powered (ie, Unliving) craft do have twice the ST that their mass would indicate. However, the example undead and golem in Magic don't seem to have significantly higher ST or HP than mundane critters; a human Zombie or Mummy (Unliving) has ST 11 and HP 15, while a Clay Golem (Homogenous) has ST and HP 15. If they followed the progressions given for Unliving and Homogenous objects, they'd have ST/HP 20 and 40, respectively.

Maybe that's the reason for the discrepancy: the x2 and x4 HP are intended for objects, rather than creatures. It could be simply for balance reasons... or the fact that these are not traits that real-world creatures possess, so examples of such are necessarily supernatural or otherwise exotic.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Maybe that's the reason for the discrepancy: the x2 and x4 HP are intended for objects, rather than creatures. It could be simply for balance reasons... or the fact that these are not traits that real-world creatures possess, so examples of such are necessarily supernatural or otherwise exotic.

You know I had thought of this already, but then what happens when you animate a statue? Does it's ST go down, or is that statue now awesome?

I was thinking that those creatures should have higher ST/HP; a golem has always been to me a frighteningly useful ally to have. And frightening for the opponents to deal with. I've been using the x2/x4 for a few races, so I was wondering if it is the default.

As for exotic things, are you saying that magic would make things intrinsically worse? Weird thing to think about.

[Flyndaran]

"Should" is a GM call. But as you must pay for any HP whatever the source, it works as a good back story for why you are so tough.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

You know I had thought of this already, but then what happens when you animate a statue? Does it's ST go down, or is that statue now awesome?

I was thinking that those creatures should have higher ST/HP; a golem has always been to me a frighteningly useful ally to have. And frightening for the opponents to deal with. I've been using the x2/x4 for a few races, so I was wondering if it is the default.

I think using the higher HP would certainly help make undead and constructs more frightening. Maybe leave off the higher ST, or only increase it by a little bit.

As for exotic things, are you saying that magic would make things intrinsically worse? Weird thing to think about.

Yeah, that is pretty weird. Then again, you need to consider what destruction means for a magically animated statue versus a mundane, inert one. For the regular statue, "death" basically means that it is reduced to rubble. However, for an animated version "death" may just mean that the magic mobilizing it is disrupted. Depending on your view of magic, this could require less damage than it takes to physically destroy it.

Really, this is all up to your interpretation of magic, I guess. However, note that if your players have access to Necromantic spells this may present a balance issue, as the undead templates suddenly get a significant boost in robustness. In that case I'd recommend readjusting the templates to keep the point costs the same, or just making Zombie and its ilk more difficult (expensive) to cast.

[DemiBenson]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

You know I had thought of this already, but then what happens when you animate a statue? Does it's ST go down, or is that statue now awesome?

A statue has zero ST - it is incapable of applying any amount of force at all.

So when you animate it with magic, it then gets a ST score, which can be whatever the magic gave it.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I think using the higher HP would certainly help make undead and constructs more frightening. Maybe leave off the higher ST, or only increase it by a little bit.



Yeah, that is pretty weird. Then again, you need to consider what destruction means for a magically animated statue versus a mundane, inert one. For the regular statue, "death" basically means that it is reduced to rubble. However, for an animated version "death" may just mean that the magic mobilizing it is disrupted. Depending on your view of magic, this could require less damage than it takes to physically destroy it.

Really, this is all up to your interpretation of magic, I guess. However, note that if your players have access to Necromantic spells this may present a balance issue, as the undead templates suddenly get a significant boost in robustness. In that case I'd recommend readjusting the templates to keep the point costs the same, or just making Zombie and its ilk more difficult (expensive) to cast.

Originally Posted by DemiBenson

A statue has zero ST - it is incapable of applying any amount of force at all.

So when you animate it with magic, it then gets a ST score, which can be whatever the magic gave it.

I was already thinking that ST and HP might be split for unliving and homogeneous creatures. I also really like the fact that a magic construct might receive enough damage to kill the magic part far before it kills the statue.

As for 'nonmagical' creatures (such as the dryad i was posting about), I know there is no real-life precedent, but it definitely feels that living things should have comparable HP to nonliving things of the same type, if nothing else than the fact that animal have HP based off of mass (half that of unliving things). Does this mean it makes the most sense to keep the same HP, regardless of ST? Or should ST and HP be same/similar as default?

Or in other words, if a golem did realistically exist, not through magic, what would it's HP and ST be if it were a clay golem of equal weight to a person?

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

Or in other words, if a golem did realistically exist, not through magic, what would it's HP and ST be if it were a clay golem of equal weight to a person?

For a "natural" golem (if such a thing could exist) I think I would give it ST equivalent to an animal of its mass, and HP as an object. So a 150lb clay golem would have ST 10 and HP 40.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

For a "natural" golem (if such a thing could exist) I think I would give it ST equivalent to an animal of its mass, and HP as an object. So a 150lb clay golem would have ST 10 and HP 40.

I was already thinking this and I'm glad someone else did (although technically it's HP would be 42 by the equation, it feels better just having it be x4. I can even increase ST cost for the race by 6pts so it's HP is always x4). This also feels better than having said golem be that absurdly strong. An aside, I would probably have the Magic golem's ST change to 10, HP to 40, and lifting ST above 10, maybe to 40, so it still keeps a similar feel.

As a note for the magic templates, I don't have a problem increasing costs of the spells to get more powerful allies.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

For a "natural" golem (if such a thing could exist) I think I would give it ST equivalent to an animal of its mass, and HP as an object. So a 150lb clay golem would have ST 10 and HP 40.

Grups rules makes 120 pounds have ST 10. Humans are just wee bit underpowered.. most likely as a nod to realism.