Pyramid #3/60: Dungeon Fantasy III

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

For what it's worth, to me the errata we implemented for this issue shows the system is working. There's no way we can ever promise to be perfect, but in the past year or so we've made significant inroads into getting stuff patched and released much quicker than before. That's all a win in my book; years from now, this issue will still be awesome, and no one will remember it needed some tweaks for a couple of weeks.

My only quibble is that without knowing wht was changed it can be confusing when you grab the update. Either you make a copy and go over them to compare line by line (tedious) or you risk using a rule and suddenly getting countered on it and going "I was sure it said something different!"
Or just thinking your more senile then you are.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Refplace

My only quibble is that without knowing wht was changed it can be confusing when you grab the update. Either you make a copy and go over them to compare line by line (tedious) or you risk using a rule and suddenly getting countered on it and going "I was sure it said something different!"
Or just thinking your more senile then you are.

Or just pop onto this thread and look for us talking about it. :)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by PK

Or just pop onto this thread and look for us talking about it. :)

Yeah but that is not always an option.
The last update I saw was refered to in Dougsblog, otherwise I would have missed the changes. Anyhow it really is a quibble and might not be worth the effort from SJG Staff.

[Carlos]

Multistrike imbuement sounds cool, but I'm still wondering how useful it really is.

One extra attack per 2 points of margin of success for half-damage while a successful defense roll avoids one attack, plus one extra attack per point of margin of success.

What's the big deal here? Is it meant to be used for non-Weapon Master warriors? Why a Weapon Master warrior with high skill (20+) would use Multistrike imbuement instead of Very Rapid Strike?

EDIT: I forgot to mention this part "By default, you’re limited to a single extra hit, but you can increase this by taking extra penalties.". So even if you have 10+ margin of success in the attack roll, you only hit a single extra attack if you don't acept a huge penalty on the Multistrike roll?

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Multistrike imbuement sounds cool, but I'm still wondering how useful it really is.

One extra attack per 2 points of margin of success for half-damage while a successful defense roll avoids one attack, plus one extra attack per point of margin of success.

What's the big deal here? Is it meant to be used for non-Weapon Master warriors? Why a Weapon Master warrior with high skill (20+) would use Multistrike imbuement instead of Very Rapid Strike?

Yes, Multistrike is meant for non-Weapon Master. I don't quite see why you think it needs Weapon Master. Margin of Success is a product of skill level, so anyone with a high skill level will benefit from Multistrike. Since a default Multistrike only gives one extra hit (much like Multi-Shot) this makes it usable by anyone with at least skill 14, but they won't be do able to anything else fancy at the same time (though this is the same for most fancy stuff at skill 14).

The benefits of a Multistrike at default are low. Either you get two hits at half damage, one hit at half damage (opponent's defence succeeds by 0) or no hits. This is compared to one hit at full damage or no hit. Thus you may occasionally do half damage when you would have done none.

For a Weapon Master the fact that Multistrike halves damage is the key issue. Absorbing the penalty to do full damage means you're not increasing the maximum number of hits you can achieve. So lets assume we have a Weapon Master who can either take the -10 to do full damage, or take the -10 to get five extra hits. Multistrike at skill 24 is reasonable for this. From here we can estimate skill level. The five extra hits means a margin of 10 is required regularly, so skill 24 is again a reasonable choice.

So what can a Weapon Master with skill 24 do with respect to Rapid Strike? Well a Rapid Strike for 4 attacks is -9, meaning each attack is at skill 15, which is close enough to the 14 or under that's been assumed for the margin. This makes the comparison 6 hits at half damage from Multistrike against 4 hits at full damage Rapid Strike.

So which does he actually do? Neither. What the Weapon Master actually does is use Multistrike on each of his Rapid Strikes, taking the penalty for to improve damage. This gives 4 attacks, each with the chance of doing two hits at full damage. In all, reasonable fair given that melee attacks can't normally take the Rapid Fire enhancement, which is essentially what Multistrike provides.

Finally, remember the being an Imbuement skill Multistike also has the FP cost to deal with. Rapid Strike only has a FP cost when you want to use Extra Effort to reduce the penalty further.

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Carlos

Multistrike imbuement sounds cool, but I'm still wondering how useful it really is.

Multistrike basically adds rapid fire to melee attacks. The half damage part is harsh, but it's mainly for Mystic Knights that focus on follow-up damage, since it's not halved (Maybe I should have clarified it though, I can understand the confusion). With an Imbued Soul, a weapon with icy/fiery/electric weapon enchantment, and a few Imbuement Skills that add damage as a follow-up, being able to do multiple hits is a big boon.

Another use is to make sure at least some damage goes though. You might land a hit where you would normally not do so, as it turns your margin of success into defense penalties (meaning that if you deceptive attack your skill 24 to, let's say, 16 for maximum crit chance, use multistrike, and roll a 14, your foe needs make his defense by 1, after absorbing -4 to defenses), meaning that it's possible to "death of a thousand cuts" a foe with high defenses (and if it's main defense is a dodge, it means that it will start suffering defense penalties from wounds rather soon).

Finally, spending a lot of points on it allows you to add extra possible hits and even make them do full damage. Toss in Efficient Imbuement so you don't bleed FP with every attack, and take a -5 penalty for total 3 extra hits, and you might end up doubling your damage.

Again, it might not be ideal for every situation, but it's another tool in the toolbox. The damage penalties were IMHO necesary to avoid making it a "must have, must use it every attack no matter what" ability.

[Carlos]

Kuroshima, I want to congratulate you for this masterpiece pyramid magazine article. I'm not sure if you remember, but I was waiting for the Mystic Knight's power-up for a long, long time.

About Multistrike, the drawbacks, IMHO, are way too heavy. This imbue looks like a melee version of Multishot, which doesn't have half damage and penalties for extra shots are -1 (and this works even for *18d+ missile spells for a mere extra 1 FP with Rcl 1!!!). That said, I think that Multistrike could have damage halved and -1 penalty for extra hits or full damage with the present penalties, but not both. The way you built make it less atractive for non-Mystic Knights because they don't have access to Imbued Soul power-up.

About it's usefulness, there're some circumstances were Multistrike sounds good. For instance, when you have 2 attack maneuvers (through Extra Attack or AoA double), you can use the first maneuver for Very Rapid Strike and the second for Multistrike. Another good idea is to combine this power with multi-oponent attacks like (Greater) Cleaving Strike or even Whirlwind Attack.

Whirlwind Attack + Multistrike = Blade Vortex

The imbued soul powers are great. I just love the power conception and 1d extra damage to all your attacks and fatigue free is sweet. But as I player, I hardly would ever purchase their second level; they don't seems appealing for it's cost.

Why Focused Imbuer requires specialization? Would it be too overpower if it worked with every imbued skill?

Striking ST is a Mystic Knight power-up. But almost every fighter can buy it with their templates or lenses. Don't you think that it could be a magic derived Striking ST (-10%, magic), similar to the Striking ST from Chi powers?

Eldritch Inititate is great. I'm building right now a Brute/Eldritch Inititate, designed to be a Barbarian with mystical powers. Mountain of Meat, HP 30+, Sacrificial Imbuement and Vampiric Weapon. Sounds so cool...


---
* That damage can be even greater, since elves can have racial Magery 3, cumulative with Wizard Magery 6, for total Magery 9, plus Power Casting perk, possibily raising damage up to 30d, maybe more.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

Again, it might not be ideal for every situation, but it's another tool in the toolbox. The damage penalties were IMHO necesary to avoid making it a "must have, must use it every attack no matter what" ability.

Or, we can have our Acid Imbued Soul, along with our Dissolving Strike. Now, we eat the penalty for maximum hits and our 24 [weapon] skill, along with rolling Stealthy Attack at -4 (-9 if we wish to dodge FP costs). Rolling Per-10 to even see the attack coming means we will more than likely score all 6 hits, effectively ablating 6d DR. Now, imagine if we AoA (Double) this so our buddies can wreck somebody?

[Kuroshima]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Or, we can have our Acid Imbued Soul, along with our Dissolving Strike. Now, we eat the penalty for maximum hits and our 24 [weapon] skill, along with rolling Stealthy Attack at -4 (-9 if we wish to dodge FP costs). Rolling Per-10 to even see the attack coming means we will more than likely score all 6 hits, effectively ablating 6d DR. Now, imagine if we AoA (Double) this so our buddies can wreck somebody?

I'm surprised that no one before commented on Dissolving Strike. I find it a really cool looking, and really effective way to deal with armor. Also, if you have Acid Imbued Soul, you also have Acid Weapon and Corrosive Strike, and so you could make all your damage corrosive. Assuming baseline Mystic Knight stats, and a swing+1 weapon, that's 2d corr per hit AFTER the reduction from Multistrike.

As for making the Striking ST magic-based, I feel that almost everyone gets unmodified striking ST, and mystic knights are already hosed enough in low/no mana.

As for the second level imbued souls, consider that you can get them all for little more than the price of one, and that means you get protection from almost every elemental themed dungeon the GM throws your way. They were mostly included for flavor though.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Kuroshima

I'm surprised that no one before commented on Dissolving Strike. I find it a really cool looking, and really effective way to deal with armor. Also, if you have Acid Imbued Soul, you also have Acid Weapon and Corrosive Strike, and so you could make all your damage corrosive. Assuming baseline Mystic Knight stats, and a swing+1 weapon, that's 2d corr per hit AFTER the reduction from Multistrike.

As for making the Striking ST magic-based, I feel that almost everyone gets unmodified strikign ST, and mystic knights are already hosed enough in low/no mana

I'm using it on a 500 point character who happens to be a Mystic Knight on steroids (following all the rules, just at double the point level). His ST is bumped up to 24, presumably through use of every Wish he found to get +1 ST, and he uses a Great Axe. End result? Ablated nearly 200 DR in a single turn. Without the use of AoA (Double).