Combat Engineering Feedback Forum

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Yup. Combat vehicles are for combat in Ogre.D.

I see what you did there...brilliant. ;) We now have at-a-glance and newb friendly Towing Rules along with a clear distinction between fighting units and repair units and only repair units may tow. Well done!

Originally Posted by wolf90

No. Destroyed is destroyed. It would need replacement, and that is not an "in-game" activity. That being said, I could see rolling for 'minor damage' as under the Weapon Repair rules, but would that be getting too fussy?D.

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

minor damage roll = yuck. Just destroy it and call it a day.

Agreed, it's distasteful, however you may want to leave the option for tow hitch minor damage repair, because it may have relevance for certain scenarios. Thus, all scenarios or games unless specified they are including tow hitch minor damage repair won't even notice this not being used. Some scenarios or even games, may have need for such a rule, no matter how obscure and seemingly insignificant next to the power of the...opps, sorry...haha

[offsides]

How does towing a disabled unit interact with it becoming undisabled? And other than an treadless Ogre, the only "immobile" unit I can think of that has movement is a stuck HVY/SHVY/Ogre in swamp - how does towing interact with unsticking it?

[Phasma Felis]

I might just declare the towing hitch effectively invulnerable.

As a small, useful item attached to a huge Ogre, there's no reason not to have several retractable replacements; it's a small target with not much tactical value, so it's hard to see attackers trying to bullseye it instead of just blasting the vehicle being towed; and, given how much crazy engineering a Vulcan can normally accomplish in a round, it could probably just fabricate a new hitch out of scrap metal in a minute or two if it came down to it. Rather than trying to model and keep track of all that, I'd just say it can't attacked, the same way you can't attack Ogre sensors or vehicle subsystems.

[offsides]

Originally Posted by Phasma Felis

I might just declare the towing hitch effectively invulnerable.

As a small, useful item attached to a huge Ogre, there's no reason not to have several retractable replacements; it's a small target with not much tactical value, so it's hard to see attackers trying to bullseye it instead of just blasting the vehicle being towed; and, given how much crazy engineering a Vulcan can normally accomplish in a round, it could probably just fabricate a new hitch out of scrap metal in a minute or two if it came down to it. Rather than trying to model and keep track of all that, I'd just say it can't attacked, the same way you can't attack Ogre sensors or vehicle subsystems.

If you're towing anything other than an Ogre, I can see that. But if your Vulcan is trying to run away with (e.g.) a Ninja, and you need it intact, that tow hitch is gonna be a mighty popular target until it's destroyed...

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by offsides

How does towing a disabled unit interact with it becoming undisabled? And other than an treadless Ogre, the only "immobile" unit I can think of that has movement is a stuck HVY/SHVY/Ogre in swamp - how does towing interact with unsticking it?

This needs some clarity for sure.

Originally Posted by Phasma Felis

I might just declare the towing hitch effectively invulnerable.

As a small, useful item attached to a huge Ogre, there's no reason not to have several retractable replacements; it's a small target with not much tactical value, so it's hard to see attackers trying to bullseye it instead of just blasting the vehicle being towed; and, given how much crazy engineering a Vulcan can normally accomplish in a round, it could probably just fabricate a new hitch out of scrap metal in a minute or two if it came down to it. Rather than trying to model and keep track of all that, I'd just say it can't attacked, the same way you can't attack Ogre sensors or vehicle subsystems.

Originally Posted by offsides

If you're towing anything other than an Ogre, I can see that. But if your Vulcan is trying to run away with (e.g.) a Ninja, and you need it intact, that tow hitch is gonna be a mighty popular target until it's destroyed...

I'm ok with or without it being targetable/ destroyable, but am leaning towards having a rule for it. It should be pointed out that those small OGRE AP Guns can be targeted individually, and the OGRE Sensor Ball is of comparable size, but cannot be, which puts us in an interesting game design area. It's a bit fudgy, you can target the AP Guns but not the Sensor Ball but it works in the game and is a easy hand wave. I rationalize not being able to hit the Sensor Ball because it has almost no surrounding surface area to hit with a near miss which would count as enough to destroy it, where the AP Guns have surrounding surface area the detonation could near miss but still be enough to destroy it. The tow hitch, I find to be closer to the AP Guns because there is surrounding surface area of the hitch. If it is decided to be targetable, just make it a difficult target, not too difficult though. Something that would make the attacker weigh the options carefully of trying to hit the hitch or not. There is a sweet spot chance to hit a tow hitch that would be balanced with the other targets, we just need to find what it is. I think it would come down to either being practical with your attacks and attack the Vulcans tread units to immobilize it, or take more of a random chance of actually destroying the tow hitch earlier by targeting it instead. It would be apples and oranges, one yields more consistent results, while the other is playing the odds for a lucky hit that stops (as in the above example) the towed NINJA faster, which I think is pretty cool.

[wolf90]

Originally Posted by GranitePenguin

minor damage roll = yuck. Just destroy it and call it a day.

Agreed, and why I didn't go there initially. KISS for the win!

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

Agreed, it's distasteful, however you may want to leave the option for tow hitch minor damage repair, because it may have relevance for certain scenarios. Thus, all scenarios or games unless specified they are including tow hitch minor damage repair won't even notice this not being used.

Something like that can be built into scenario specific rules as a unique feature of the scenario on an 'as needed' basis.

Originally Posted by offsides

How does towing a disabled unit interact with it becoming undisabled? And other than an treadless Ogre, the only "immobile" unit I can think of that has movement is a stuck HVY/SHVY/Ogre in swamp - how does towing interact with unsticking it?

A disabled unit can roll to recover as normal, and if it does so, can be released from the tow at any time as described. Unsticking has its own rules and is separate from these towing rules. Immobile units are treadless Ogres and SHVYs.

Originally Posted by Phasma Felis

I might just declare the towing hitch effectively invulnerable.

Originally Posted by offsides

If you're towing anything other than an Ogre, I can see that. But if your Vulcan is trying to run away with (e.g.) a Ninja, and you need it intact, that tow hitch is gonna be a mighty popular target until it's destroyed...

offsides hits the issue square on the head. The scenario possibilities absolutely scream for this to be targetable. The key is making it sturdy enough to require a concerted attack, but not so strong that it can't be destroyed. I hope I hit that balance. My debate was between D3 and D4; I'm allowing MSL Tanks and 3 squads of infantry to have a 1:1 shot at it currently; I haven't ruled out D4 though.

D.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by wolf90

Something like that can be built into scenario specific rules as a unique feature of the scenario on an 'as needed' basis.

Will this be stated somewhere in the rules for the VULCAN?

Originally Posted by wolf90

offsides hits the issue square on the head. The scenario possibilities absolutely scream for this to be targetable. The key is making it sturdy enough to require a concerted attack, but not so strong that it can't be destroyed. I hope I hit that balance. My debate was between D3 and D4; I'm allowing MSL Tanks and 3 squads of infantry to have a 1:1 shot at it currently; I haven't ruled out D4 though. D.

...I'm throwing my hat at the D4, D3 seems a smidge too easy. The Towing mechanism would be between the towed and towing vehicle, which obviously means a very narrow target window, like only facing it directly sideways on one side or the other. That's a tough shot.
D4 would be uping it to needing 4 squads of Infantry for a 1:1 or a Missile Tank will need a little more help, with, say, a squad of Infantry for the 1:1.

[Tim Kauffman]

Not sure if this has any relevance, but:

The original Towing Rules stated the following:

"4.0 TOWING
4.04 Stacking
Units being towed are stacked with the towing unit(s), and are affected by spillover fire normally. (Note that this prevents towing when using OGRE rules only)."

?- Is the towed vehicle affected by spillover fire? Obviously, yes, but I don't see it in the new rules.
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Also from the original towing rules, I found this interesting:

"4.07 Tandem Towing
Two towing vehicles (but no more than two) can "team up" and pull a single unit. The total towing tread units for vehicles towing in tandem is figured by adding the remaining tread units of the vehicle and subtracting 5. Thus an intact Mark5 (60 tread units) and a Superheavy (15 tread units) towing in tandem pull as though they had 70 total tread units; they could pull a Heavy Tank at M3; a Mark3 Ogre at M2; a Mark5 Ogre at M1; or a Mark6 Ogre (when the towing player roll a 5 or less) at M1."

?- Will we have Tandem Towing in the new rules? Yes, Vulcans are rare, but if on a special mission to recover a vehicle as quickly as possible, sending in two VULCANs to Tandem Tow the friendly unit back sounds like something that would happen under such circumstances. Especially in a cool Scenario.
__________________________________________________

?- I was also interested in the "Towing unfriendly units" section of the original rules...will there be any mentioning in the new rules of this and how it works?

[dwalend]

Originally Posted by Tim Kauffman

...I'm throwing my hat at the D4, D3 seems a smidge too easy. The Towing mechanism would be between the towed and towing vehicle, which obviously means a very narrow target window, like only facing it directly sideways on one side or the other. That's a tough shot...

Or from above. Or you penetrate the ground beneath the hitch and detonate underneath to break it.

I'll take the opposite side of this one. Make it D1.

It's a physical hitch mechanism exposed on a nuclear battlefield. Secondary batteries are half-buried in BPC, and a main battery only has the end of the barrel poking out of a giant sphere of the stuff.

The hitch is a quick, sure fix, but the vulcan already brings alternatives. The vulcan can repair treads on the ogre. (That's likely the better tactical and strategic choice, maybe to the point that we don't need towing rules. Tactical - the vulcan and ogre can be in different hexes on the next turn. Strategic - the vulcan should really run for it if it's as valuable a strategic asset as the background suggests for anything smaller than a MkV.)

The rescue scenario is about keeping the enemy away from the vulcan and the ogre it is rescuing. It's a stand-off mobile defense scenario. I don't know that we have something like it. A D4 defense means that six GEVs need to slip through. That's a slower-to-play, single-gambit, less suspenseful game.

D1 lets the fight go until the last INF.

[Tim Kauffman]

Originally Posted by dwalend

Or from above. Or you penetrate the ground beneath the hitch and detonate underneath to break it.

It's a physical hitch mechanism exposed on a nuclear battlefield. Secondary batteries are half-buried in BPC, and a main battery only has the end of the barrel poking out of a giant sphere of the stuff.

...The units firing will be to one side or the other was my point...yes, the rounds coming in on the tow hitch will be from above or the sides, and detonating underneath, like a mine would as well. It's still a narrow target. I'm assuming it would also be covered in BPC, and not anymore exposed as an OGRE Secondary or Main Battery, I would argue it's just as important as an OGREs weaponry, being a recovery OGRE. A "RECOVEROGRE"...haha

Originally Posted by dwalend

The hitch is a quick, sure fix, but the vulcan already brings alternatives. The vulcan can repair treads on the ogre. (That's likely the better tactical and strategic choice, maybe to the point that we don't need towing rules. Tactical - the vulcan and ogre can be in different hexes on the next turn. Strategic - the vulcan should really run for it if it's as valuable a strategic asset as the background suggests for anything smaller than a MkV.)

"14.03.6 – Tread Field Repair. Ogre treads may be repaired in the field as well. Either a Vulcan or a Heavy Drone may attempt to repair treads: two dice for a Vulcan, one for each drone. For every 6 that is rolled during the attempt, one tread is repaired."

...That's not very fast...even with a bunch of Drones lending helping hands (yes, I went there) ;) it sounds like a "believable" rate, but if you need to bug-out a disabled vehicle in a hurry, towing is always going to be the best option. Not allowing towing on a recovery vehicle, regardless of what century it is in would be like not allowing Peanut Butter on a PB&J sandwich, and still call it a PB&J sandwich.

Originally Posted by dwalend

The rescue scenario is about keeping the enemy away from the vulcan and the ogre it is rescuing. It's a stand-off mobile defense scenario. I don't know that we have something like it. A D4 defense means that six GEVs need to slip through. That's a slower-to-play, single-gambit, less suspenseful game.

D1 lets the fight go until the last INF.

That's what I enjoy about new units is the Scenario possibilities they bring up. Sounds like we have a lot of VULCAN inspired ones pending.

...GEVs are attack 2 range 2, so 2 of them (= attack strength 4) combine firing on a D4 tow hitch would be an attack of 1:1 unless I'm missing something. If the tow hitch is D3, you need 1 Light GEV (attack strength 1) and 1 GEVs (attack strength = 2 for a total combined attack of 3) for a 1:1. Sounds reasonable and suspenseful enough to me. That's really not a lot of fire power from the Last Wars perspective Imho.