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Old 12-04-2009, 12:57 AM   #11
Tinman
 
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

In the fantasy game im running, one of the PC's is an archer. For a while we tried having arrows sticking out of you would cuse penalties (depending on where it hit you. A yard long arrow will surely do somthing.
However, after sevral weeks, it was determied that the additional rules we had were a PITA and slowed the game too much.
If the hive mind comes up with anything good I'd love to see it.

We had rules for attacking with arrows sticing out of you, on a miss of 5+ you would bump it and cause aditional damage as it was pushed around inside. Also, enemies could target the arrows at -2. To knock them arround or push them deeper. These attacks would do less basic damage than most new attacks, but since the head was aready past the armor, there was no reduction for DR. Thus encourageing the 'braking' or removeal of arrows.

As for braking off arrows...
We said if you had 2 hands free it took 1 second to brake an arrow. If you were armed with a cuting wep no longer than reach 1, you could use it to cut the arrows. It would do 1/2 the damage of trying to remove it.

Hope all that helped.
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Old 12-04-2009, 02:07 AM   #12
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

I might put the roll to break the arrow as a DX roll, with a penalty for 1-handed attempts (Say, -5?). Failure still breaks the shaft off and prevents you from being as likely to hit it on things, but it also does damage to you as well (Say... 1/2 the damage it would do pulling it out?) since you wiggled the arrowhead around inside you.
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Old 12-05-2009, 12:35 PM   #13
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

The German Wikipedia article on wounds from projectiles links to an thesis by some medical guy on treating arrow wounds, in particular how it was done in the past. It's in German, though. There are some interesting ideas in there (and pictures of his test results with dead pigs ...).

Something I learned there:

The big question is: Leaving the arrow in or getting it out?
Both is bad, but you don't want to leave it in forever, so unless you have access to much better surgery elsewhere, you don't have a lot of choices.

More important seems to be: The tip must come out! The shaft is annoying, but might not cut into anything that it hasn't penetrated yet. A sharp metal tip in your body might do additional damage in the future, though.

Your decision is complicated by the following: If you decide to leave in the arrow for now, the various bodily fluids/warm environment/movement/whatnot might quickly losen the way the tip is attached to the shaft. (I.e., if it's glued with low TL glue, or bound with some kind of organic string.) That's bad because it considerably lessens your chance to get the tip out!

So, how to get the arrow out?
Barbed arrows pose a problem, but not all are barbed in both directions. Maybe pushing out is actually less harmful then pulling it out. This can be especially true for a wound in the thigh, for example.

There are special low TL (3-5?) tools to get arrows out. Think of pliers looking like tweezers that cover the entire shaft (or like a split metal condom that you put over the arrow from both sides). Yes, you have to widen the wound to get that in, but they should elimate the danger of barbs.

If it's just about the mechanical problem of moving a barbed arrow: Hammering it through the body or tying it to a crossbow to pull it quickly have been tried ...

(The rest of the thesis is concerned with "how deep does an arrow penetrate and what does it do to bones?" with 2 different bows and a crossbow, and different kinds of tips.)

Regards
Ts
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:38 PM   #14
Phaelen Bleux
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

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Originally Posted by Tema69 View Post
Any thoughts? I know it's simplistic, but I'm no surgeon, and I only want the added realism of arrows sticking out of people... :P
We'll I'm no human surgeon, but if a dog got shot. . .

For realism, no one in their right mind is going to continue to fight with an arrow sticking out of them unless they have to. And unless your foe really wants you dead, he's probably going to consider the fight over too. If the victim MUST fight, you might assess a Shock penalty equal to the 1/2 damage dealt until the arrow can be attended to.

For fantasy/cinema, you're obviously going to want to take it out--when you have time. Since you can't fight easily with a shaft sticking out, you're gonna want to break it off. If you're going to do this alone, I think a Will roll to steel against the pain is more important than a ST roll to break a thin wooden stick.

Even with the shaft gone, the head is still a foreign body that's not going to be too comfortable. You might assess a -1 Shock roll to skills with the arrow head still in there.

Getting to the head is much more problematic. You'll need friends. Friends that don't mind hurting you. After a generous application of mind altering elixir (scotch, vodka, what have you) and some bruteicaine ("Hold him down, this is gonna hurt."), your "surgeon" has two options--pull it out OR push it through. Sometimes it's easier to do the latter since that's the direction the arrow wants to go anyways, especially on a limb. Bleeding is the first major issue (especially in the abdomen) and sepsis the second. But I think the OP was more about fighting with the arrow in situ.
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Old 12-05-2009, 04:43 PM   #15
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

Interesting about the heads coming off from being bathed in warm blood and shifting around - that wouldn't have occurred to me.

There's a pretty good description of TL2 methods and advances in arrow-removal here: http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/MedicalInstruments.htm. Scroll down to "Arrow-Wounds" for the immediately relevant section. There was even a specialized tool called the Spoon of Diokles for arrowhead removal.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/23345066/B...Roman-Medicine says that Celsus suggested pushing the arrow through a counter-opening, basically creating a surgically-opened channel to extract the arrow point-first from the other side.
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Unless you are the best medical option within practical range, don't take out the arrow -- go get proper treatment. Likewise, unless there's a dire need, don't try breaking off the shaft. Even slight movement can cut an organ or an artery and poof the situation goes from bad to 'Oh, #%^&!'
Right.

Stablilize that sucker with a bulky dressing, shorten it if only it's long and may thwack something or make evac very problematic. You don't want the business end [or splinters] moving about inside the casualty.
Removal should [if possible] be done by someone with surgical training or experience. If the arrow is through the cheek and may be occluding the airway, I'd remove it- but carefully.
If you have magical healing/ultratech, that's obviously going to be a big help!

Last edited by combatmedic; 12-05-2009 at 07:06 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 12-05-2009, 06:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

Colonel Joseph H. Bill, who wrote several guides to the treatment of arrow wounds received by US Army personnel from about 1860 onward, had seven principles that he recommended:
  1. An arrowhead must be removed as soon as it is found*
  2. In the search for the arrowhead extensive incisions are justifiable
  3. An arrow can be pushed out as well as pulled out
  4. Use fingers for exploration of the wound not a probe
  5. Great care must be taken to avoid detachment of the shaft from the arrowhead**
  6. The wound should be closed by sutures if possible
  7. The patient should be comforted because "Although arrow wounds are not attended with much shock, they are usually the cause of great depression of spirits."
He also strongly recommended against cutting the shaft of the arrow before removal because the presence of the shaft made locating the wound track and arrowhead easier and the amount of movement in the intact arrow could indicate if it was in contact with bone or organs.

*Easier said than done if the head was embedded in bone. Some ancient sources suggested tying a horse to the shaft and using it to pull the arrow free. Others used crossbows attached to arrow and fired to pull it out while some surgeons just made an incision and got the chisels out.

**Native Americans used tendon to attach the arrowhead to the shaft and this tended to come loose in the wound.
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Old 12-05-2009, 07:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camillus View Post
Colonel Joseph H. Bill, who wrote several guides to the treatment of arrow wounds received by US Army personnel from about 1860 onward, had seven principles that he recommended:
  1. An arrowhead must be removed as soon as it is found*
  2. In the search for the arrowhead extensive incisions are justifiable
  3. An arrow can be pushed out as well as pulled out
  4. Use fingers for exploration of the wound not a probe
  5. Great care must be taken to avoid detachment of the shaft from the arrowhead**
  6. The wound should be closed by sutures if possible
  7. The patient should be comforted because "Although arrow wounds are not attended with much shock, they are usually the cause of great depression of spirits."
He also strongly recommended against cutting the shaft of the arrow before removal because the presence of the shaft made locating the wound track and arrowhead easier and the amount of movement in the intact arrow could indicate if it was in contact with bone or organs.

*Easier said than done if the head was embedded in bone. Some ancient sources suggested tying a horse to the shaft and using it to pull the arrow free. Others used crossbows attached to arrow and fired to pull it out while some surgeons just made an incision and got the chisels out.

**Native Americans used tendon to attach the arrowhead to the shaft and this tended to come loose in the wound.
Removed as soon as it was found? Don't get confused by that- that's a surgeon in 1860 talking. A modern person just giving simple first aid had better leave the arrow in the wound, in most cases. If you must remove, get the guy someplace safe, lay him down, then take your time and do it right. Have a surgeon, or at least a trained medic, do it if at all possible. Of course, the medical infrastructure/support that you have will influence how you handle any given situation. Nowadays, many of these injuries should be dealt with not in the field [except of course for first aid] but in a hospital environment. In a modern [tl6-8] setting, I'd leave that sucker in unless it was blocking his airway. Get him to a hospital, don't do a field removal if it isn't necessary.

Shortening an arrow would certainly need to be done with the proper tools- not yanking and jerking on the shaft. Minimal movement/manipulation of the shaft is important. That's why you want a bulky dressing- and don't shorten if it won't be a serious transport difficulty. Moving a guy through brush by a hand-carry, you might have to shorten it, whereas open terrain in the back of a wagon, no.

I've never seen an arrow wound on a human, but I have dealt with penetrating/perforating trauma and impaled objects more than once.


A lot of this depends on the TL,access to magic [fantasy games] and the particulars of the situation at hand [combat still going on? difficult terrain? where was he hit?etc]

Last edited by combatmedic; 12-05-2009 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 12-05-2009, 09:53 PM   #19
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

How about:
-1 to to all skills per arrow you have stuck in you.
But you do not bleed (B420) from a specific wound until the arrow is removed, but you cannot be healed of the damage (Magically or otherwise) until all arrows are removed. The -1 penalty can be eliminated by making a successful roll against DX to break off the shaft.

Option: -1 to all skills per arrow per (Minute/Hour) or increasing the penalty if you fail a roll against HT every minute/hour?
This would make getting help a bit more important, as you could operate for a while, but it would start working against you.

Removal could be done as a First Aid roll, with critical failures determining bad things happening (nicking an artery, losing the head, whatever).

I've been kind of tempted to add this due to a section in Jo Clayton's "Drinker of Souls" series where a newly graduated Sorcerer comes upon an unconscious man with three arrows in him, and she has to decide what spells are safest to get them out of him, so she can heal him. (She transmutes the arrows and the iron heads to water.)
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Old 12-05-2009, 10:03 PM   #20
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Default Re: Getting shot by an arrow - leave it or take it out?

If it comes up that my players want to deal with realistic penalties of arrows stuck in people, I would call it some appropriate-sounding level of Pain and be done with it (Basic Set p 428, Afflictions).

If a higher resolution of horror is necessary, then arrows stuck in any hit location where Impaling does less than x2 wounding, push your pain level up to Moderate. Arrows stuck in any hit location where Impaling does x2 wounding pushes your pain level up to Severe. Arrows stuck in any hit location where Implaing does more than x2 wounding pushes your pain level up to Terrible.
This is regardless of the absolute number of arrows, by the way. Three arrows in your arm is still Moderate. For more resolution, use partial crippling rules from Martial Arts on top of this.

Real Hedgehog type situations may call for a penalty found by looking up number of arrows in the victim on the Speed/Range table, using #of Arrows as Yards. Read across to find the range Penalty. This penalty stacks on top of the Pain penalty mentioned above. Even a berserker would be inconvenienced by being full of arrows.

The problem of extra damage to yourself by knocking around the arrows would be handwaved, as technically any existing injury is an invitation to being aggrivated just by running around, and I don't want to deal with that in my games. I WOULD, however, make the victim suffer any falling damage as Impaling damage to the same hit location if he fell over.

I would maliciously assess falling from standing as a 2 yard fall (falling from kneeling or sitting as a 1 yard fall) becaus dood, you've got arrows in your lungs.
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