Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-19-2020, 04:52 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

The example on B33 makes me think of 2 concerns...

STATUS

The simplest example is that you could take "Heir Status +2" [5] for the same price as "Status+1" [5] and operating at full power it gives all the benefits.

The drawback appears to be that the GM can dictate how you spend your bonus points in the future (you MUST purchase the other half!) which could be inconvenient if you wanted to buy something else at that time with your CP.

The benefit appears to be that you don't need to obtain IPJ (in-play justification, B291) like put in the work (eg bribe, service, combat, course, BG check) to convince an IAPORA (individual in a position of relative authority) to bestow it.

IPJ seems pretty open-ended (you can quantify a bribe as a % of Starting Wealth bought with CP but we don't know how large a bribe) allowing a lot of GM flexibility in forbidding things.

WEALTH

It lets you get a 50% bonus to Starting Wealth by taking "Heir Comfortable Wealth" for 5 points... (B25: usually +100%)

"Wealthy" gives +400% so "Heir Wealthy" would give +200% (twice the bonus Comfortable gives, you have TRIPLE the starting wealth) yet costs exactly the same?

B291 also mentions "necessary bribes, taxes, etc" for buying wealth, in addition to actually having acquired the money equal to that level's SW.

Money appears to operate like a 0-point meta-trait (advantage: CP you can trade for gear + disadvantage: enemies who covet), where the 1 CP per 10% SW that you trade for it is simply the convenience of being able to instantly re-arrange your points to varying degrees?
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 05:46 PM   #2
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Hmmm. I never thought of this before, but you're right. B33 says:

"Until then, you enjoy extra money, reaction modifiers, etc. equal to half what you stand to gain. For instance, if you stood to inherit +2 to Status [10] and Comfortable wealth [10], Heir would cost 10 points, and give +1 to Status and a 50% bonus to starting wealth."

Think of the son of a Multimillionaire 2 [100]. He buys Heir: Multimillionaire 2 [50] and gets 5,000 times the starting wealth rather than just 100 times the starting wealth for Filthy Rich [50].

I always just assumed that if you were an Heir: Multimillionaire 2 [50], you got the benefit of what 50 CP of Wealth would give, i.e. 100 times starting wealth.

And I think that's how the trait should be handled. Is there any reason it should give you a free x50 multiplier?
JulianLW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 05:47 PM   #3
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

I have often thought that Potential Advantages are designed a bit wrong.

In my games, I make them a perk, but they give NO other advantages beyond the right add points to eventually buy the actual advantage without further IGJ. If you want interim level benefits, in alignment with the principle you get what you pay for, buy it at the level you want the benefits.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 06:39 PM   #4
kirbwarrior
 
kirbwarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dreamland
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

I've always assumed that you can only make the last level potential at least in regards to Wealth. Then again, it might be better to take it more gamist and say you get the effect of spending half the points; Status 2 as heir is no different in ability to Status 1. Filthy Rich is no different in ability to Very Wealthy (yes, it's rounding, you could round down instead to Wealthy or make a complicated guess at 25pts).

Actually, rereading it, Heir only seems like an issue for increasingly better traits. Doubling your points in Wealth is roughly x5 in what you get early on and more the higher it gets. TK does something similar; Doubling the level is quadrupling how much you can lift. I think the solution of Heir only applying to one level of Wealth solves that problem nicely to me.

I do agree with the thought about 'wrongly designed'. It really does make more sense to be a 'pay for what you get currently now, pay for what you get later then'. Schrödinger’s Advantage does make sense as is, you effectively bought an Unusual Background to spend points at literally any point in time to buy an ability AND convert the UB into that ability. In fact, I used a similar idea in 3rd where you spend points ahead of time and you can at any point convert those points into an advantage of your choice with any unused points you have sitting around.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
kirbwarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 08:36 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Think of the son of a Multimillionaire 2 [100]. He buys Heir: Multimillionaire 2 [50] and gets 5,000 times the starting wealth rather than just 100 times the starting wealth for Filthy Rich [50].
*looks at 25 some more*

Hm... if you buy your wealth down to Struggling [-10] (-50% SW) and then take "Not Struggling" [10] (+50% SW) as "Heir Not Struggling" (ie "Heir Average") I guess that means you would enjoy +25% SW for 75% SW?

The strange thing about GM saying "I can obligate you to pay a character point to upgrade your wealth when your dad dies" is there's usually a requirement for upgrading your wealth...

B291 assuming "bribes aren't mandatory" I think means "taxes" somehow. IE you probably pay "death tax" if representing getting wealth via some kind of endeavour or relative?

You are FORCED to buy a higher wealth level (goodbye bonus CP you wanted to increase your HP with!) per B517 if savings exceed Starting Wealth for that level, but this only seems to apply if you are working at a job that pays more than your Wealth indicates.

That seems like in a way a kind of "point debt" because GM is giving you the benefit of Wealth for free (higher salary) but in exchange he is removing your freedom to spend bonus CP as you see fit. Except... you could always quit that job and go back to a lower-paying one to avoid that consequence and regain control of spending your bonus CP.
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 08:20 AM   #6
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
The simplest example is that you could take "Heir Status +2" [5] for the same price as "Status+1" [5] and operating at full power it gives all the benefits.

The drawback appears to be that the GM can dictate how you spend your bonus points in the future (you MUST purchase the other half!) which could be inconvenient if you wanted to buy something else at that time with your CP.
Look closer. "When you take a potential advantage like this, sit down with the GM and work out the in-game conditions under which you will acquire the desired trait. When these conditions are met, you must use bonus character points to pay the other half of the price as soon as possible..."

So you agreed to the parameters when you chose to take a potential advantage. This isn't the GM arbitrarily dictating things that happen to you; it's you agreeing to conditions.

Quote:
The benefit appears to be that you don't need to obtain IPJ (in-play justification, B291) like put in the work (eg bribe, service, combat, course, BG check) to convince an IAPORA (individual in a position of relative authority) to bestow it.
That's correct. If you want to be the heir of a title and fortune, but you don't have or want to spend the character points needed for the full amount, you can pay half and set up triggering conditions with the GM, and at that time you won't have to "earn" the advantage. Normally, you couldn't just suddenly earn additional Status or Wealth without an explanation. Being an heir is a pre-agreed explanation for something you'll finish buying later.

Quote:
It lets you get a 50% bonus to Starting Wealth by taking "Heir Comfortable Wealth" for 5 points... (B25: usually +100%)

"Wealthy" gives +400% so "Heir Wealthy" would give +200% (twice the bonus Comfortable gives, you have TRIPLE the starting wealth) yet costs exactly the same?
No, Wealthy [20] gives 5 times average starting wealth, so Heir (Wealthy) [10] gives 2.5 times starting wealth and the promise of a hassle-free upgrade later.

Don't think of Heir like this: Wealthy (Heir) [10] = Comfortable [10]. Think of it like this: Heir (Wealthy) [10] = 2.5 times starting wealth.

Quote:
B291 also mentions "necessary bribes, taxes, etc" for buying wealth, in addition to actually having acquired the money equal to that level's SW.
That's only if you're not an heir. Being an heir replaces these requirements with whatever trigger conditions you and the GM came up with and your payment of the needed bonus character points.

Quote:
Money appears to operate like a 0-point meta-trait (advantage: CP you can trade for gear + disadvantage: enemies who covet), where the 1 CP per 10% SW that you trade for it is simply the convenience of being able to instantly re-arrange your points to varying degrees?
I don't follow you here. Money a meta-trait? Enemies?

Quote:
Hm... if you buy your wealth down to Struggling [-10] (-50% SW) and then take "Not Struggling" [10] (+50% SW) as "Heir Not Struggling" (ie "Heir Average") I guess that means you would enjoy +25% SW for 75% SW?
Struggling [-10]
Heir (Average Wealth) [5]
Character begins with 3/4 starting wealth.

Quote:
B291 assuming "bribes aren't mandatory" I think means "taxes" somehow. IE you probably pay "death tax" if representing getting wealth via some kind of endeavour or relative?
It means whatever conditions the GM places upon allowing a player to upgrade the character's Wealth.

Quote:
You are FORCED to buy a higher wealth level (goodbye bonus CP you wanted to increase your HP with!) per B517 if savings exceed Starting Wealth for that level, but this only seems to apply if you are working at a job that pays more than your Wealth indicates.
It doesn't matter if you get it through a job or not. If a character manages to amass that much money, it will be impossible to keep it without developing the social connections necessary to keep it. Your credit score will go up. The bank will see you as a good customer. You will be eligible for more and bigger loans. People in more wealthy jobs are more likely to take you seriously when you apply for those jobs. You will have accumulated all the benefits of a higher Wealth. Now it's time to pay for it.

To avoid having to pay character points for the upgrade, spend the cash immediately. You'll stay at your current Wealth level.

Last edited by Stormcrow; 10-20-2020 at 08:24 AM.
Stormcrow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 10:17 AM   #7
JulianLW
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Don't think of Heir like this: Wealthy (Heir) [10] = Comfortable [10]. Think of it like this: Heir (Wealthy) [10] = 2.5 times starting wealth.
So at TL8, Filthy Rich [50] gives you $2,000,000, with $400,000 to spend on starting gear....

while Heir: Multimillionaire 2 [50] gives you $100,000,000, with $20,000,000 to spend on starting gear?

That's really how this trait should work?

Twenty million is better than four-hundred thousand.

Last edited by JulianLW; 10-20-2020 at 10:20 AM.
JulianLW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 10:50 AM   #8
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
That's really how this trait should work?

Twenty million is better than four-hundred thousand.
Yes, that's really how the trait should work. Heir is not about how much you get for the immediate point-investment; it's about how much you're GOING to get and how much you'll HAVE to pay.

Someone with Filthy Rich [50] pays 50 points and never has to pay another character point. Someone with Heir (Multimillionaire 2) [50] still OWES 50 character points, and once the trigger is invoked the player will not be able to improve their character in any other way until the debt is paid off. 50 bonus character points is a LOT to earn.
Stormcrow is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 02:04 PM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Yes, that's really how the trait should work. Heir is not about how much you get for the immediate point-investment; it's about how much you're GOING to get and how much you'll HAVE to pay.

Someone with Filthy Rich [50] pays 50 points and never has to pay another character point. Someone with Heir (Multimillionaire 2) [50] still OWES 50 character points, and once the trigger is invoked the player will not be able to improve their character in any other way until the debt is paid off. 50 bonus character points is a LOT to earn.
...But when that happens they have Multimillionaire 2, which is worth 100 points. If they're allowed to take point debt, they've leveraged an extra windfall of getting their character a higher effective point total earlier.

Now, sure, that might be a problem if the player had intended to just cheese the 'half benefit while heir' issue forever and wanted to buy other things while never paying for the less competitively priced half of the Wealth advantage. Somehow that scenario fails to fill me with concern for their inconvenience.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2020, 03:02 PM   #10
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ronkonkoma, NY
Default Re: drawback of Potential Advantage: Heir ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...But when that happens they have Multimillionaire 2, which is worth 100 points. If they're allowed to take point debt, they've leveraged an extra windfall of getting their character a higher effective point total earlier.
Yes, at the price of stunted development later.

Quote:
Now, sure, that might be a problem if the player had intended to just cheese the 'half benefit while heir' issue forever and wanted to buy other things while never paying for the less competitively priced half of the Wealth advantage.
Except Heir requires a trigger that both the player and the GM agree upon. If the player tries to put off the trigger until beyond the end of the campaign, the GM should not accept the condition. Once a condition is agreed upon, it is up to the GM to judge what happens and to enforce the payment of the debt.

Can a player find a loophole regarding the condition? Sure. Does that invalidate the "free" money? No.
Stormcrow is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comfortable, heir, struggling, william headley, xing la

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.