Fanaticism and Sense of Duty

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Micah Davis

Maybe I’m just acutely morally sensitive, but it seems to me this would dominate any character portrayal far more than most forms of Fanaticism. Causes are flexible - They can be advanced in numerous ways, there are plenty of near optimal paths. But people are concrete and they have concrete needs, you can measure if you’re helping them and how much.

People have some very concrete needs, but once they've got food, shelter, and no outstanding unmet medical needs it becomes a whole lot harder (and less concrete) to tell what will help them or measure whether an intervention is helpful.

[Micah Davis]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

People have some very concrete needs, but once they've got food, shelter, and no outstanding unmet medical needs it becomes a whole lot harder (and less concrete) to tell what will help them or measure whether an intervention is helpful.

There are many people, even in historically rich countries like the United States, who do not have these needs met. Sense of Duty (Innocents) or (Americans) or (Everyone You Know Personally) are all going to catch some of those people. And there plenty identifiable forms of suffering, especially in a setting like most GURPS campaigns where there is at least a reasonable possibility of violence. Remember, the character can never abandon these people. They love them.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Micah Davis

There are many people, even in historically rich countries like the United States, who do not have these needs met. Sense of Duty (Innocents) or (Americans) or (Everyone You Know Personally) are all going to catch some of those people. And there plenty identifiable forms of suffering, especially in a setting like most GURPS campaigns where there is at least a reasonable possibility of violence. Remember, the character can never abandon these people. They love them.

Yes, if you have a Sense of Duty that requires to to address the basic needs of a large group of people (which 'Everyone You Know Personally' might well not be but 'innocents' or a nation or even a city is) that gives you a problem so large you could easily spend literally all your time on it even if you take a high-level approach.

Though there is a certain degree of freedom in having the problem be too big for you to actually solve it. When your SoD is to enough people that you can't help all of them who are in trouble or suffering or hungry, you have room to choose which problems you actually get to! SoD doesn't provide or imply a particular priority system in that situation.

(Of course, if you've got the right/wrong other traits, the solution to that situation might appear to be gaining enough power that you can solve the problems...)

[Tyneras]

Different philosophies have different ideas about what helping others actually means. A very freedom orient person will seek to enable you to have the tools or remove restrictions, but otherwise leave it up to you to live or die. A very authoritarian person may instead seek to keep everyone well fed in gilded cages. A number of three laws robot stories center around the idea that freedom is dangerous and often leads to suffering and the robots don't like this.

Another example would be SoD(My Child) which can be an overprotective parent who never lets their child suffer any danger or injury or one that lets them suffer non-permanent injuries in the hopes of better long term growth and learning.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

Different philosophies have different ideas about what helping others actually means. A very freedom orient person will seek to enable you to have the tools or remove restrictions, but otherwise leave it up to you to live or die. A very authoritarian person may instead seek to keep everyone well fed in gilded cages. A number of three laws robot stories center around the idea that freedom is dangerous and often leads to suffering and the robots don't like this.

SoD does, as quoted, place some limits on how far you can stretch that. No matter your general moral philosophy, you cannot choose to let its subjects suffer or starve because you think that's good for them.

(You can potentially do the gilded cage treatment.)

[Tyneras]

I suppose a question might be: If someone you have a SoD for is choosing to starve to death, are you required to force food down their throat?

If the answer is yes, then SoD is much more restrictive than I've been treating it.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

I suppose a question might be: If someone you have a SoD for is choosing to starve to death, are you required to force food down their throat?

If the answer is yes, then SoD is much more restrictive than I've been treating it.

There might be circumstances where you can leverage it against itself - if you have to choose between them suffering and starving, say. Depending on philosophy, you might also have a choice between betrayal (which is also not allowed) and starvation. Generally if you're in a bind where simultaneously satisfying all your Disadvantage obligations is impossible, you are free to pick among best-effort attempts.

So...you might be so obligated, but it's also possible that you wouldn't be.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

SoD does, as quoted, place some limits on how far you can stretch that. No matter your general moral philosophy, you cannot choose to let its subjects suffer or starve because you think that's good for them.

(You can potentially do the gilded cage treatment.)

That may be Rules as Written, but I don't think it quite Rules as Intended. "Suffer" in particular requires some interpretation and intuition. There are many degrees of suffering. I don't think stopping everything to prevent the subject from performing a mildly arduous task is what the disadvantage requires, and the case of force feeding a voluntary faster has been mentioned. I think its even within the disadvantage to put the subject through arduous tasks because they think that it will make the subject better and stronger.

What they can't do is not care, or even idly watch. If they think not lending physical aid is best, they will lend aid in some other way, such as by giving advice or encouragement. And if they truly believe that doing absolutely nothing is best, they're liable to fretfully or steadfastly watch the results.

I've always gotten the impression that the larger groups in sense of duty are meant to apply to the people around the character, not as a whole.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Comic-book writers seem to assume that powers somehow force people to choose between "power corrupts" and a plunge into villainy,

One of my favorite stupid examples is in Flash; Apparently, your average person will immediately try to rob a bank if they got powers if there isn't someone in particular they hate. One gal in Season 4 seems mostly a good person but still justifies thievery quickly. You actually aptly explained one reason why I love supers but dislike super comics.

On the note of SoD, I've imagined it meant "do what you can to prevent or fix things that are ruining [these people]'s lives at the scale you are capable of". SoD: One Person can mean anything from training to become a bodyguard to finding them a job to sharing your rations based on circumstances. It can even mean something easy like keeping your phone on you at all times in case they text you while you're at work. While SoD: America might involve small things like giving money to every homeless person you come across and working at food drives on the weekend to working to change the laws to make it so everyone's basic needs are met on a fundamental level to abusing your Detect: Danger (Long Range) and Warp to constantly stop people from getting hurt during your off hours. But the biggest part to me is "Don't turn away, don't ignore". If you have SoD: Everyone you personally know, you might not know that Micheal lost his job, but when he text you that information you're the friend who'll go to him and help him find a job while everyone else might just send condolences.