Limitation: Fragile

[Jeminai]

I seem to recall that there was a limitation known as "Fragile" that gave full benefits unless the user falls below 0 HP in which case they lose the use of the ability.

I may have the name wrong.

Can someone help me find what reference this is in?

[Jeminai]

Actually, I just spoke with a friend and he told me that I am remembering incorrectly.

He reminded me that there was thread talking about buying an Advantage and making it Fragile: Unnatural (per the disad on B 137) at -50%.

For instance if someone bought the Jumper advantage (100 points, B 64) but limited the ability as "Fragile: Unnatural" the -50 disad cost would equate to -50% limitation to the ability and make it so that I could only use my Jumper ability if i was above -HP in Hit Points, with a final cost of 50 points for the advantage.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? Does this seem balanced? Any input would be appreciated.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

He reminded me that there was thread talking about buying an Advantage and making it Fragile: Unnatural (per the disad on B 137) at -50%.

For instance if someone bought the Jumper advantage (100 points, B 64) but limited the ability as "Fragile: Unnatural" the -50 disad cost would equate to -50% limitation to the ability and make it so that I could only use my Jumper ability if i was above -HP in Hit Points, with a final cost of 50 points for the advantage.

I'm not familiar with the thread in question, so I can't directly reference it. However, I think I can rebuild what you're talking about. The limitation you're referencing seems to be Temporary Disadvantage: Fragile (Unnatural), which would indeed be -50%. Now, normally Temporary Disadvantages mean that you, the character, have that disadvantage while you're using the ability. However, various sourcebooks introduced the concept, and Power-Ups 8: Limitations made official, the concept of "Temporary Disadvantage, Shutdown". That's where the Temporary Disadvantage, rather than applying to the whole character, puts a limitation on the advantage itself that can shut it down. The classic example is Temporary Disadvantage: Electrical on things like cybernetic implants, meaning they can be turned off by attacks and conditions that would shut down electrical devices.

Now, the trick is, Temporary Disadvantage, Shutdown is normally only supposed to be applied to always-on advantages, which Jumper doesn't qualify for. For it to be a valid limitation on Jumper, I think you'd have to treat Jumper like an always-on advantage - it's not always jumping you, but it's always vulnerable to whatever causes the shutdown. If you've got Temporary Disadvantage: Electrical on it, and get zapped by something that fries electronics, your Jumper is now unusable until you can get someone to work on it.

How this interacts with Fragile (Unnatural) also needs to be worked out. I would not say that Fragile (Unnatural) as a Temporary Disadvantage, Shutdown limitation would mean you couldn't use the ability when you were at -HP or less. Rather, how I'd rule it is that it means your ability is a physical thing that is vulnerable to damage, and further, it means if it ever takes the full HP where it would otherwise start needing to make HT rolls to keep it working, it instead just breaks automatically. I'd peg any given "advantage organ" as having half your total HP, for the record.

So if you had Jumper (Temporary Disadvantage, Shutdown, Fragile (Unnatural), -50%), and average 10 HP, your "Jumper implant" or "organ" or whatever could be targeted by people attacking you, and it would have 5 HP. Once you took 10 HP to that, it would be immediately crippled, without an HT roll to resist.

[Flyndaran]

-50% is way way way too big of a savings.
Powers suggests -40% for an accessibility limitation causing an advantage to only work 1-6% of the time.
No one's going to spend 94% of their time below 0 HP.

Not to mention that at that level of injury, you're probably going to spend some of the time unconscious making any active advantage useless by default.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

-50% is way way way too big of a savings.
Powers suggests -40% for an accessibility limitation causing an advantage to only work 1-6% of the time.
No one's going to spend 94% of their time below 0 HP.

While I agree that -50% is the right price, I don't know that this is the right way to analyze it. Sure, you don't spend 94% of their time below 0 HP, but that's pretty much the worst time to have your abilities fail.

A couple of links to old threads (sadly, they both spend more time on what happens when your abilities only work below a certain HP threshold):

[Powers] Accessibility, Only Above or Below %HP or %FP This one has a Krommquote.
Only While Injured. This one is looking at it the other way, but there's a good post by Bruno listing the semi-standard breakpoints in HT that could be good food for thought.

[Jeminai]

Choosing an advantage like Jumper was probably the mistake. I chose it for the easy math of a 100 point advantage.

What about something like Striking ST level 4 (20 points)

It is an advantage that is always on. Would it be balanced and make sense to put on a limitation of "Fragile: Unnatural" which would mean that I have Striking ST as long as I am above -HP. So if I get down that low, I am not only hurt but I also don't hit as hard.

Does that make sense and does -50% also work?

[Anthony]

Temporary disadvantage is normally for ongoing effects, though it's probably fair to apply it to instant effects if the disadvantage is given a duration. For example, Jumper (TD: Fragile) would mean you would be fragile while attempting to jump, and also for some period after jumping.

If you merely can't use it while below 0 HP, it's just Accessibility (not when below 0 HP, -5%).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

What about something like Striking ST level 4 (20 points)

It is an advantage that is always on. Would it be balanced and make sense to put on a limitation of "Fragile: Unnatural" which would mean that I have Striking ST as long as I am above -HP. So if I get down that low, I am not only hurt but I also don't hit as hard.

You could put such a limitation on Striking ST, but Temporary Disadvantage: Fragile (Unnatural) wouldn't be the one to use. This is really an Accessibility limitation, "Not while below -HP". As others in the thread have already observed, you don't really spend that much of your time at more than -HP for that to be worth -50%. I'd peg such a limitation at about -10%.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

Choosing an advantage like Jumper was probably the mistake. I chose it for the easy math of a 100 point advantage.

What about something like Striking ST level 4 (20 points)

It is an advantage that is always on. Would it be balanced and make sense to put on a limitation of "Fragile: Unnatural" which would mean that I have Striking ST as long as I am above -HP. So if I get down that low, I am not only hurt but I also don't hit as hard.

Does that make sense and does -50% also work?

Finally found a thread specifically about what you were asking. Here's a post from it that describes exactly what you want.

That post suggests -20%; Kelly Pederson suggests -10%. I can see a case for either, but those seem to me to be the right neighborhood. -50% seems a tad high to me.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Brandy

That post suggests -20%; Kelly Pederson suggests -10%.

Actually, the post in question seems to suggest the same value I gave, -10%, since I believe the original poster in this thread is talking about the ability shutting down when they are at -1XHP or lower - that's the value you'd "shut down" with Fragile (Unnatural), certainly, and when they talk about "-HP", that's how I read it.