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Old 01-23-2018, 08:22 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default TG: Does "Sprawling" (MA p119) mesh with TG?

[Note: Sprawling (MA119) is not to be confused with Sprawling Parry (TG40), they are different]

MA p119 lists "Sprawling" as an option when defending against a Takedown (which was a generic thing pre-TG) or similar.
Defender voluntarily went down, and got a +3 bonus to the defensive side of the Quick Contest for the Takedown. If defender won or tied the attacker was pulled down as well, his grapple broken plus the defender ended on top.

Now, in TG this should apply for most of the Takedown moves. IMHO Sweep does not sound applicaple, and perhaps also Defensive Judo Throw (since you don't retain CP here).

The situation arose last week, when I premiered Tecgnical Grappling in my Cliffhanger campaign, which has been going on for years. In a previous thread I gave an account of that, alongside some questions.

In one situation Goon D had a 6 CP grapple on Kodiak's torso, and went for an Offensive Judo Throw, spending 4 CP. Goon D opted to remain standing. Kodiak called "Sprawling" for the +3 to his defensive roll in the contest. And dang it if he didn't win that contest!
So following the rules from MA119 as best I could, Kodiak pulled Goon D down and ended on top for a Weight Advantage. In the other thread where Douglas Cole was nice enough to answer, it sounded like I did things right. Except I forgot that Goon D should also have lost his grapple.

However, this sounds too good! I know the attacker making the Takedown can increase his odds by spending CP. But if the defender wins or ties he effectively gets free-instant Takedown, Break Free, and Establish Weight Advantage (effectively a Change Position action)! This would have taken 3 rounds to do for Kodiak if he had been the attacker!

I know that the attacker could choose to go down himself, for bonus in Force Posture Change, and in this case the Sprawling makes more sense. But that is optional.

Am I missing something here, or is there an imbalance?

I know some moves (e.g. Grapple then Offensive Judo Throw) can be done faster in certain ways (e.g. Grabbing Parry then Defensive Judo Throw) but that's just a single round.

It may be fine to get the free-immediate Force Posture Change, and even the Weight Advantage.
But maybe this just sets up a Break Free in the following round at some bonus (or penalty for the original attacker)?
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Old 01-23-2018, 08:29 AM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: TG: Does "Sprawling" (MA p119) mesh with TG?

If you check Force Posture Change, there's a bit about the attacker changing position voluntarily, going from standing to prone is +4, standing to crawling/sitting is +2 (kneeling to prone is also +2), etc in bonuses to the contest. You could allow the defender to choose from this as well, which would get you close to the sprawl (you could also cap the max bonus at +3 instead of +4, which would duplicate the MA sprawl; I was in love with doubling bonuses at the time, so +1, +2, +4; the +4 also felt kinda all-out to me, so there it was).

But there's also a note in TG called "Impossible Positions," and sometimes you just can't maintain a grapple because of physiology.
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Old 01-25-2018, 03:35 AM   #3
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Default Re: TG: Does "Sprawling" (MA p119) mesh with TG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If you check Force Posture Change, there's a bit about the attacker changing position voluntarily, going from standing to prone is +4, standing to crawling/sitting is +2 (kneeling to prone is also +2), etc in bonuses to the contest. You could allow the defender to choose from this as well, which would get you close to the sprawl (you could also cap the max bonus at +3 instead of +4, which would duplicate the MA sprawl; I was in love with doubling bonuses at the time, so +1, +2, +4; the +4 also felt kinda all-out to me, so there it was).

But there's also a note in TG called "Impossible Positions," and sometimes you just can't maintain a grapple because of physiology.
That does actually make perfect sense. if the defender calls "sprawling" he gets the full Force Posture Change modifier of +4 to use the attacker's takedown to get a better ground position. He is much more likely to win the contest, and if he does he pulls the attacker down and gains weight advantage.
If the attacker had wanted to remain standing, he would not get +4 for his own posture change, and thus more likely to lose the contest.
If the attacker had wanted to go down with the takedown he would get the +4 bonus, and it is harder for the defender to win. Makes sense because the attacker is prepared for ground fighting.

Regarding whether the attacker keeps the grapple or not, I think I'll have to rely on common sense. Even if the sprawling defender wins and ends on top I think the attacker may very well keep the grapple.
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Old 01-25-2018, 08:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: TG: Does "Sprawling" (MA p119) mesh with TG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
I think I'll have to rely on common sense.
A million times this.
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