Does Lucifer still serve light?

[chris the cynic]

I'm serious here. Lucifer has more or less brought the deepest and darkest aspects of humans and celestials into the spotlight, he's enlightened the entire world with respect to all things that we call dark.

If there is something hidden in darkness he'll bring it into the light. He'll drag it kicking and screaming into the light if needs be and he'll make sure everyone gets a good long look at it.

So it seems to me that he is serving light in a rather twisted way, but if that's the case how does it effect his character? Is there anything he wouldn't do because it would oppose the word?

Is there anything that would be opposing the word?

The things that bring moral darkness often bring intellectual light. Atrocities, for example, teach us a lot about what people are capable of and what drives us. I'm having trouble thinking of anything that doesn't somehow serve light in some interpretation of the word.

[Magicwillnz]

Does Lucifer still serve light? Not really.

Don't forget that Lucifer is trying to drag the entire universe into darkness. He wants to kill the symphony. He hates everything about existance. If he causes inspiration or enlightenment, it was accident or to further his plans. Lucifer wants to crush your hopes and drag you into darkness too... at least, that's my take on him.

Then again, he is a Balseraph, and can justify his actions to himself any way he wants.

[alexondria]

I've done him difrently in difrent campaigns. The last campain that I ran Lucifer was actualy still working for Heaven- the entire conflict brings progress idea. I haven't compleatly decided what I'm going to do w/ him this time but I can't imagine him having easy to read motives or wanting to destroy the symphony- I could see him wanting to control the symphony. I'm thinking about running him a lot like the Lucifer in the Vertigo series.

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by Magicwillnz

Don't forget that Lucifer is trying to drag the entire universe into darkness. He wants to kill the symphony. He hates everything about existance.

I have trouble believing that. In In Nomine at least. It isn't selfish enough. He gains nothing. Ruling a universe of darkness isn't a huge gain. Killing the Symphony achieves nothing, it doesn't help him, ruling the symphony on the other hand ... that is selfish.

Also you say he hates everything about existance, but the materials we have seem to indicate he was happy with his lot before humanity. Odds are there remains something that he likes or he can change into something he likes.

[Lord Carnifex]

It's not necessarily canon to In Nomine, but...

It can be asserted that Shaitan/Satan, the Adversary of Judaic tradition, is really more of God's quality control. It's his job to continually test Creation, in an attmept to see where it breaks. For the best example, see the story of Job... Satan's not ruining his life out of hatred or malice, but to see if and when Job will lose his faith. That Job turns out to be the Old Testament's most eloquent cynic is just icing on the cake. Furthermore, Satan does this WITH the full acceptance of God.

In fact the Rabbis and Prophets are most insistant on this: all good and all evil flow from God. Nothing is done without His will or assent. Satan gets all of his power and authority to act against the creation from God. Christianinty, of course, has a differnet take on all this, as do Zoastrianism and Islam.
+++|<=== Lord Carnifex ---

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

It's not necessarily canon to In Nomine, but...

It can be asserted that Shaitan/Satan, the Adversary of Judaic tradition, is really more of God's quality control. It's his job to continually test Creation, in an attmept to see where it breaks. For the best example, see the story of Job... Satan's not ruining his life out of hatred or malice, but to see if and when Job will lose his faith. That Job turns out to be the Old Testament's most eloquent cynic is just icing on the cake. Furthermore, Satan does this WITH the full acceptance of God.

All of the Christians I know who are aware of this fact maintain that, while it's a nice/tedious read, Paradise Lost got it wrong and the fall happened at some point between the Old and New Testaments.

Obviously that belief has no place in In Nomine canon. I guess the belief is that Satan is the Adversary, but of man instead of God. It certainly makes the read more consistent but one has to remember that books were cut from the Torah, and some of those contained a more traditional devil-figure. (Or would you call it more modern? I really don't know which came first.)

In fact the Rabbis and Prophets are most insistant on this: all good and all evil flow from God. Nothing is done without His will or assent. Satan gets all of his power and authority to act against the creation from God. Christianinty, of course, has a differnet take on all this, as do Zoastrianism and Islam.
+++|<=== Lord Carnifex ---

While I have never read the holy book of the religion I do believe that Islam states that all is as good wills it, evil as well. So that puts them firmly on the, "Evil flows from, or is at least the will of, God," side.

I must confess though I'm not sure how this relates to my question.
(I'm not complaining mind you.)

[zogo]

Originally Posted by chris the cynic

All of the Christians I know who are aware of this fact maintain that, while it's a nice/tedious read, Paradise Lost got it wrong and the fall happened at some point between the Old and New Testaments.

That is not however a standard Christian doctrine. Milton's version is much closer to the tradtional form of Christianity. Christians generally hold that the Judaic understanding of Satan is incorrect.

[Lord Carnifex]

Well, if you wanted to adopt the view, anlong with the standard equation of Lucifer = The Satan = The Snake, etc...

It means that Lucifer won't likely do anything that will destroy the symphony outright... or it means that he lacks the power to do so. It also means that, in the end (of a given scenario, epoch, or of all time) Lucifer and God are on the same side. It means that every time an Angel doesn't fall or a Demon redeems, it means that Lucifer might be cheering on the inside. He'll do his *ahem* damnedest to keep it from happening, of course (it's his job); but when he and God get together for their quarterly meeting, there'll be a certain comerederie.

Or to give it a certain grim irony (and what's an In Nomine game without grim irony?) it means that the whole War, starting from Lucifer's rebellion, was planned as a means to test which angels would keep their faith, and that the whole course of infernal history has Lucifer privately shaking his head, muttering "suckers..." It means that every time a demon shakes his fist at God while obeying Lucifer is, in the end, helping Lucifer do God's will. It means that every time an angel foils one of Lucifer's plots, all he's really done is demonstrated his faith. Heck, it means that every time Lucifer acts against God, he's just fulfilling his role, like a minor chord to the Symphony. It means that, in the end, God and Lucifer will fold up the field of Armageddon like a chessboard, shake hands, and congratulate each other on a game well played.

That help answer your question? :-)
+++|<=== Lord Carnifex ---

[zogo]

Originally Posted by zogo

That is not however a standard Christian doctrine. Milton's version is much closer to the tradtional form of Christianity. Christians generally hold that the Judaic understanding of Satan is incorrect.

However as I recall Moe Lane had a writeup for Satan a Seraph of Judgement whose purpose was to test people for faithfulness and who Really Really HATED being confused with Lucifer.

[chris the cynic]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Heck, it means that every time Lucifer acts against God, he's just fulfilling his role, like a minor chord to the Symphony.

I always wondered where minor chords and modal tunes fit in. I mean Demons are more or less a twelve tone system, but there' so much of a range between the two, not just in music but in all else as well.

-

Back on the idea of Lucifer wants to bring everything into darkness, that isn't serving himself for he gains nothing and loses quite a bit, it's serving a cause. And serving a cause, no matter how screwed up that cause may be, is selfless.

Demons are meant to be selfish, maybe want to see their enemies in pain, perhaps have all bow before them, perhaps just have a nice happy life filled with friends and random acts of violence, but whatever they are after it serves themselves.

A world of darkness and a destroyed Symphony doesn't gain anything, it loses the potential for power and power itself. For one thing if you desire worship a world in darkness can't support as many people to do it, ask yourself when the population is higher: in an enlightened civilization full of healthcare and charity, or in a dark ages situation full of disease and starvation? When do you have more to rule, or torture, or eat, or play with, or do anything else to? When there is more in existence. Dragging the world into darkness goes against this.

On the other hand it furthers a cause, the cause of darkness or the overturning of God's will, but if Lucifer is some being who is selflessly serving a sick and twisted cause that makes him ... angelic. That means that hell is run not by a demon but by the most powerful outcast angel of all time.

It's an interesting twist, but not the situation I was looking for.