Estimating damage from dice in LBS. or KG.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Variable, two blows that would be considered identical 'damage' in GURPS could differ substantially on a test like the one shown in that clip because it's not measuring damage.

I also suppose it is variable; however, what would be the best approach to estimate it?

For example if 3d +6 was required to achieve 1500 Psi most of the time...
How can you estimate 3d +6 = 1500 Psi most of the time?

(Most of the time in this situation means, you get the best result when rolling damage, not skill).

- Hide

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hide

I also suppose it is variable; however, what would be the best approach to estimate it?

By completely ignoring it as being only incidentally related to any valuable measure.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Anthony

By completely ignoring it as being only incidentally related to any valuable measure.

I don't get your point, are you suggesting I should simply "let it be" and/or "make the numbers"?

Simply put:

If there is this machine which receives a punch and returns its Psi, at some point it should be involving strength as the main variable, because strength is directly involved with the push force or impact of the punch.

GURPS wise, I understand a punch may deal variable damage depending on many factors (ST, skills, techniques, armor, etc.).

However, the rough power of a punch "translates" into a certain number of dice, for example "1d" damage. And AFAIK, in GURPS such score results primarily from ST. So, I don't think that Ivan Drago has "1d-3" as his basic damage score. Maybe he had "1d+5" and when he hit, he got "11" which ultimately was 1850 Psi. More or less, I think this is the approach JazzJedi suggested (thank you!).

Therefore, assuming GURPS has some math behind its damage score calculations ... Maybe there is a way to bring pound-force calculations (involving damage scores) into a custom scenario, at least.

- Hide

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hide

If there is this machine which receives a punch and returns its Psi, at some point it should be involving strength as the main variable, because strength is directly involved with the push force or impact of the punch.

Measured force will be a hybrid of strength, weight, and punching style, in a way that correlates sufficiently poorly with anything actually interesting that I'd consider it garbage data.

[starslayer]

Step 1: Throw out the machine that measures psi, pounds, etc.

Step 2: Build a device that measures kinetic energy (likely a g force meter attached to a known weight bag)

Step 3: Use the kenetic energy of the fist, and its cross-sectional area as data points for Douglas' KE->damage converter (which is intended for firearms).

That's going to be hopelessly messy, and likely result in a whole lot of 1d-3 until you go well into the superhuman range (like it should probably, fists are terrible damage dealers).

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by starslayer

That's going to be hopelessly messy, and likely result in a whole lot of 1d-3 until you go well into the superhuman range (like it should probably, fists are terrible damage dealers).

Fists deal out damage pretty well. What they do not do is have penetration. As even humans should probably have some DR vs crushing over most of their body (even GURPS as written gives most objects, haumns included, about 0.5DR), this results in fists doing no real damage much of the time (but leaving spectacular surface bruising, etc., because they did plenty of damage but it never reached anything important).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Fists deal out damage pretty well. What they do not do is have penetration.

Absolutely. I think there is a risk when we try to too closely* match the GURPS system for bullets or small fast projectiles in general to other forms of weapons that go about damaging us in different ways.

Originally Posted by Rupert

As even humans should probably have some DR vs crushing over most of their body (even GURPS as written gives most objects, haumns included, about 0.5DR), this results in fists doing no real damage much of the time (but leaving spectacular surface bruising, etc., because they did plenty of damage but it never reached anything important).

I think I'd argue a lot of Cr not having a minimum damage of 1 is part of that. It especially kicks in when you have not very forceful sources of Cr damage e.g. untrained ST10 basic punches!



*I can see the temptation as it is the one that has the most maths behind it!

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Fists deal out damage pretty well. What they do not do is have penetration. As even humans should probably have some DR vs crushing over most of their body (even GURPS as written gives most objects, haumns included, about 0.5DR), this results in fists doing no real damage much of the time (but leaving spectacular surface bruising, etc., because they did plenty of damage but it never reached anything important).

While I don't completely disagree with you, I don't think a revisit to the entire concept of crushing damage in general and how fists are handled should enter into part of this exercise.

[Edges]

Does anyone have a source for melee weapon KE data? That might be interesting to plug into Doug's equations.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Edges

Does anyone have a source for melee weapon KE data? That might be interesting to plug into Doug's equations.

There are a few studies which try to estimate KE for thrusts, but they come with a lot of handwaving. I don't know anyone with a relevant degree who thinks they can estimate the energy of cuts, because a cutting sword is not an unpowered projectile, it is part of an O(100 kg) system which constantly provides force which constantly changes.

Look up Horsfall, "An Assessment of Human Performance in Stabbing."