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Old 12-23-2019, 09:10 AM   #1
FireHorse
 
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Default 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

If A is two hexes away from B (and nobody else is present), then A is disengaged, yes? Suppose A wants to jab B with a spear. Which one of the "Options for Disengaged Figures" is that?
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Old 12-23-2019, 09:15 AM   #2
hcobb
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

ITL 102: "(b) CHARGE ATTACK. Move up to half its MA and attack with any weapon except a missile weapon, or HTH."
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Old 12-23-2019, 09:24 AM   #3
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

Charge and attack or just about any action except Defend and Dodge. Then you move zero hexes.

Then, depending on how others moved, when it is your turn to act again, you decide what action you will actually take. So then it will be a jab attack, or if the other guy closed in on you, it will be an attack with a charge bonus or if they move away, you can throw your spear instead or maybe dodge.

In reality, this is what happens in a turn.

- Initiative roll.
- During move you decide if you want to move and how much. The more you move the less options you will have later.

Dodge and Defend can break DX order. If you use the optional rule of delayed action, that can also break order. It is adjusted DX (without ranged mods) that counts, which is a pain. The easiest way is to go by adjDX after armor, shield and damage penalties (those modifiers that are constant no matter what action you will chose).

- In DX order, you exceute one action that is allowed, usually limited by how far you moved. You do the action, then the next guy.

The current presentation of available actions is very confusing and a little incomplete and to be fair redundant.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:37 AM   #4
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

This is one of several cases where the list of options is not really engineered to cover the intent of other parts of the rules (another is the much-discussed Defend action). I would say that it is better to adopt the intuitively clear solution (the jab is just an Attack) rather than try to shoe horn it into something else.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:40 AM   #5
FireHorse
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
ITL 102: "(b) CHARGE ATTACK. Move up to half its MA and attack with any weapon except a missile weapon, or HTH."
But… a Charge Attack involves a Charge (hence the name), and you end up adjacent to the target, right? This is not the case with a jab.

Plus, ITL 112 says a jab is a regular attack, and even specifies that a 2-hex jab cannot be combined with a charge (so no bonus damage).

I suppose that's overly literal nitpicking, but it seems like there should have been another letter in the list of Options, specifically for Jab Attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
… The current presentation of available actions is very confusing and a little incomplete and to be fair redundant.
YES. It is very confusing, and poorly organized. That list of Options could be presented in a much better way.

In fact, that's exactly why I asked. I'm creating my own custom player aid, because that ugly (disorganized, incomplete, and occasionally redundant) text list is not friendly, inviting, or even especially helpful to new players.

Last edited by FireHorse; 12-23-2019 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

You can make a charge attack with a thrown weapon, such as a spear thrower. You don't need to be next to anybody for that.
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Old 12-23-2019, 12:55 PM   #7
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

There is a difference between a charge attack with a pole arm or against it. One requires 3 hex straight movement, the other that the enemy start disengaged and end up engaged with you (even after you stand still and turn). This is just a qualifyer for first strike, +2 DX and pole arm extra damage. The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".

There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
- Full move, nothing else can be done.
- Half move, everything but missile attacks, spellcasting can be done.
- 1 step move, which allows missile and spell attacks. And can be done when
engaged if you keep being engaged by all oponents.
- Stand up, you can't do anything else. (OR crawl 2 hexes)

No matter the move you get to rotate for free.

After your move, you can choose your action freely, limited by the move you actually did. IF you stood still or only moved 1 step you can do anything. If you moved more than half move, you pretty much do nothing. Easy. New players don't need to know much more than that.
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Old 12-23-2019, 01:29 PM   #8
Skarg
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
In reality, this is what happens in a turn.

- Initiative roll.
- During move you decide if you want to move and how much. The more you move the less options you will have later.

Dodge and Defend can break DX order. If you use the optional rule of delayed action, that can also break order. It is adjusted DX (without ranged mods) that counts, which is a pain. The easiest way is to go by adjDX after armor, shield and damage penalties (those modifiers that are constant no matter what action you will chose).

- In DX order, you exceute one action that is allowed, usually limited by how far you moved. You do the action, then the next guy.
^ YES


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
There is a difference between a charge attack with a pole arm or against it. One requires 3 hex straight movement, the other that the enemy start disengaged and end up engaged with you (even after you stand still and turn). This is just a qualifyer for first strike, +2 DX and pole arm extra damage. The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".
^ YES


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
- Full move, nothing else can be done.
- Half move, everything but missile attacks, spellcasting can be done.
- 1 step move, which allows missile and spell attacks. And can be done when
engaged if you keep being engaged by all oponents.
- Stand up, you can't do anything else. (OR crawl 2 hexes)

No matter the move you get to rotate for free.

After your move, you can choose your action freely, limited by the move you actually did. IF you stood still or only moved 1 step you can do anything. If you moved more than half move, you pretty much do nothing. Easy. New players don't need to know much more than that.
YES.
Except you left one out: there is also an option for figures that moved TWO hexes or less, to sling ready weapons and ready other weapons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
But… a Charge Attack involves a Charge (hence the name), and you end up adjacent to the target, right? This is not the case with a jab.
A "charge attack" is moving from non-adjacent to adjacent, as defined in the pole weapon rules, and qualifies pole weapons to the +1 die damage defensive attacks.

"Charge Attack" is the confusing name of option (b), which is a hold-over from original Melee, before there were jabs or other distinctions about it. As mentioned by others above, option (b) would be more accurately named "attack with zero up to 1/2 MA movement", to avoid confusion with the above concept (which DOES confuse some people - there are pages and pages of discussion about it).


Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
... I'm creating my own custom player aid, because that ugly (disorganized, incomplete, and occasionally redundant) text list is not friendly, inviting, or even especially helpful to new players.
Sure, so call it Jab Attack, available to figures moving 0 to 1/2 their MA (regardless of their engagement status), can be defended against even by unengaged figures.
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Old 12-23-2019, 03:54 PM   #9
FireHorse
 
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
… The "Charge" and attack option has nothing to do with that, since it applies to all weapons. It could just as easily have been called "move and attack" or "possibly move and attack".
Yes, it could have been. And it would have been better to avoid inviting confusion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
There are basically only four different kinds of moves.
… (snipped simple, easy to understand summary)
… Easy. …
Ayup. One wonders why the Rules As Written are not presented so simply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
A "charge attack" is moving from non-adjacent to adjacent, as defined in the pole weapon rules, and qualifies pole weapons to the +1 die damage defensive attacks.
But not the 2-hex Jab, right?
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:14 PM   #10
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Default Re: 2-Hex Jab Attack: Option?

Why shouldn't a Cavalry Lance impact at two hexes in front of the horse's head? Given P as the pony's head on the diagram on page ITL 132, shouldn't the lance only be able to hit hexes X, Y and Z?
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