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Old 03-18-2019, 03:36 PM   #11
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
But that is my point... what defines "low powered super-flashy"?

So it seems that 6d6 (with a few limitations) is too high for a 15 point prayer.

What about 4d6? Or 2d6?

This is my point. The Divine Powers guidelines say that anything with a Full Cost (before the 1/5 for alternate advantage) of 25 pts or less can only give you "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection".

With 25 Pts, you could normally buy:

5d6 Burn Attack
a 50% Ally, summonable, always available
Combat Reflexes (+1 to all active Defenses, Fast Draw, etc.)
DR 5
Dark Vision
An Extra Attack
An Extra Life
Gunslinger
etc.

And yet, if you tried to make these Learned Prayers in Divine Favor, I don't think any of them fit into the guideline of "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection".

So I am lost. I don't see how I am to characterize a 55 point Learned Prayer (which qualifies as "Good") as a "subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc."

Heck, for 55 points, you better be able to do more than that!!
To be honest, if you look at the examples it looks like the authors have a rather generous understanding of 'subtle'. They put Walk on Water, Lay on Hands, and Holy Glory in that bin. As the book says on p10:
While most of the assistance here remains subtle, the divine
power behind it becomes more prominent and clear.
Coincidences become harder to rationalize . . . and some of the
effects are blatantly miraculous.
That said, a lot of the things you mentioned above fit, or can fit, pretty easily in the 'semi-plausibly deniable miracle' category of the Neutral reaction level. For instance, Gunslinger and Combat Reflexes are pretty well covered under "a bonus to a roll". Having your skin work like medium plate wouldn't be very subtle, but something that manifests as attacks catching at a bad angle on your kit and glancing off could work. You'd probably be sticking on some modifiers to produce a good representation of that! Dark vision doesn't perfectly hit the page 5 labels but could fairly be called "a bit of divine aid with a mundane problem" and isn't directly observable by anybody else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
So I, as the GM, have to arbitrate every Learned Prayer to try to determine which bucket it fits in?
Yes. That's always how powers work: the players may be allowed to build them but the GM has to make the call on acceptability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
I have no problem doing the work, what I have a problem with is the guidelines themselves. They gave a single line of context for prayers that can differ in cost by as much as 25 points, and they make little to no mention of direct damage prayers.
Direct damage prayers that work on things that aren't supernatural evil isn't really the style that stock Divine Favor is going for. That doesn't mean you can't use it with them just fine, but you should expect to need to make some tweaks to flavor factors like the page-5 constraints.
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Last edited by Ulzgoroth; 03-18-2019 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 03-18-2019, 03:37 PM   #12
Kelly Pedersen
 
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
With 25 Pts, you could normally buy:

5d6 Burn Attack
a 50% Ally, summonable, always available
Combat Reflexes (+1 to all active Defenses, Fast Draw, etc.)
DR 5
Dark Vision
An Extra Attack
An Extra Life
Gunslinger
etc.

And yet, if you tried to make these Learned Prayers in Divine Favor, I don't think any of them fit into the guideline of "a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection".
I would disagree with that assessment. I could justify several of those as "a minor blessing". The 50% Ally with Summonable would be a helpful person who shows up when you ask, no matter where you are (since you've got there, another person showing up counts as a "realistic coincidence" as far as I'm concerned), Combat Reflexes is easy to justify as simply being unusually alert, Extra Attack and Gunslinger could both be justified as just being somewhat cinematically good at fighting for a bit, and DR 5 could be a matter of attacks just coincidentally doing minimal or less damage.

Note that several comparable advantages (including DR 5, albeit with limitations) are included among the Neutral level of reactions in Divine Favor, so clearly the book does consider them "minor blessings".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nose66
So I am lost. I don't see how I am to characterize a 55 point Learned Prayer (which qualifies as "Good") as a "subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc."
Again, the book provides several examples of miracles that fall into this category, I'd use those as guidelines. As a general rule, though, I'd suggest that "raw" advantages that cost ~50 points are probably not going to be the best things to use, because 50 points will tend to be pretty flashy. Instead, look for cheaper base costs, and use enhancements. In particular, things that make an advantage affect the user and their friends (like Affects Others, Area Affect and Aura, etc.), makes them difficult or impossible to resist (like Armor Divisor or Cosmic, Irresistible Attack), or makes them cover a larger area (again, Area Effect), will all help making an effect seem "subtle" while still being potent.
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:26 PM   #13
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by Nose66 View Post
But that is my point... what defines "low powered super-flashy"?

So it seems that 6d6 (with a few limitations) is too high for a 15 point prayer.

What about 4d6? Or 2d6?.
That is missing the point which is "My hands burst into flames and I punch the ruffian" is too flashy for those guidelines no matter how little damage they do. If you are using them then any miracles you design with low point values should also be relatively inobvious.
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Old 03-18-2019, 11:52 PM   #14
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
That is missing the point which is "My hands burst into flames and I punch the ruffian" is too flashy for those guidelines no matter how little damage they do. If you are using them then any miracles you design with low point values should also be relatively inobvious.
Exactly if it were...
"Soul Fire"
Innate Attack (Toxic) 6d6 (Accessibility (Only Affects Evil), -20%; Contact Agent, -30%; Divine, -10%; Melee Attack, Reach C, -30%; No Signature, +20%; Onset, 1 minute, -10%) [5]

That would be subtle and deadly.



(Note, Onset requires one of Blood Agent, Contact Agent, Follow-Up, Malediction, or Respiratory Agent.)
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Old 03-20-2019, 06:44 AM   #15
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Here's how I see it:

What constitutes minor or major miracles depends on the campaign. In a High Fantasy setting where the Gods Walk Among Us, "minor" or subtle miracles might be someone's hands bursting into flames and dealing followup burning damage. In a realistic Modern Day campaign, that would be quite miraculous.

If the purpose of the GM is to replace normal clerical magic with Divine Favor, then the miracles should scale with what could have been done with spells.

Edit: The problem with this system as a whole is that using a Learned Prayer costs the PC almost nothing: It doesn't take die rolls, fatigue, works in Low/No Mana zones, and in Low Sanctity. They only fail in areas of No Sanctity, if I remember correctly. I pretty much believe you should NOT use Learned Prayer for "battle prayers" -- direct damage prayers against anything other than a very narrowly defined set of enemies, or general protection prayers (DR, extra HP or FP, or instant Healing) unless you are prepared for a character that can continuously throw magical damage without consequences, or easily survive encounters that should have been challenging.

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Old 03-20-2019, 11:54 AM   #16
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by nick_coffin View Post
Edit: The problem with this system as a whole is that using a Learned Prayer costs the PC almost nothing: It doesn't take die rolls, fatigue, works in Low/No Mana zones, and in Low Sanctity. They only fail in areas of No Sanctity, if I remember correctly. I pretty much believe you should NOT use Learned Prayer for "battle prayers" -- direct damage prayers against anything other than a very narrowly defined set of enemies, or general protection prayers (DR, extra HP or FP, or instant Healing) unless you are prepared for a character that can continuously throw magical damage without consequences, or easily survive encounters that should have been challenging.
In my current game, I want all clerical or druidic magic to be replaced by Divine Favor. One character wants to be a Druid, and to define her own prayers. The guidance I am giving her is:

Your job is to protect Nature. There are certain situations and foes that the Great Spirit of Nature will help you with:
  • Anyone defiling Nature (pollution, alchemical runoff, strip mining, magic or Elder Things warping Nature, necromancy and the undead).
  • Any unnatural creature: Constructs, Dire Animals (these are considered mutants), Demons/Divine Servitors, Elder Things, magical Hybrids, Undead).

Other enemies or situations do not directly trigger the Great Spirit of Nature to grant you the ability to do direct harm. Other utility type spells are generally allowed because they allow you to further your Mission.

I agree that druids need offensive capabilities, but Nature will not step in unless the attacker is an Enemy of Nature. Nature, after all, is all about those who are prey, and those doing the preying. You have been given natural tools (arms, legs, a brain capable of creating weapons and armor) to defend yourself. Dying in a fight with a tiger is part of the natural order -- your natural gifts are fairly pitted against the tiger's natural gifts of stealth, speed, strength, teeth, and claws. Thus my quote about "Nature, red in tooth and claw."

Dying in a fight with a Golem is unnatural because the Golem exists outside of Nature.

If the Druid is about to die -- even from a natural attacker -- he's free to petition the Great Spirit, and we'll make a reaction roll to see if Nature decides whether to spare him to continue Her mission.
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:44 PM   #17
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by nick_coffin View Post
Edit: The problem with this system as a whole is that using a Learned Prayer costs the PC almost nothing: It doesn't take die rolls, fatigue, works in Low/No Mana zones, and in Low Sanctity. They only fail in areas of No Sanctity, if I remember correctly. I pretty much believe you should NOT use Learned Prayer for "battle prayers" -- direct damage prayers against anything other than a very narrowly defined set of enemies, or general protection prayers (DR, extra HP or FP, or instant Healing) unless you are prepared for a character that can continuously throw magical damage without consequences, or easily survive encounters that should have been challenging.
Depends how you mean it. Learned prayers don't take die rolls or cost fatigue beyond anything that may be written into the specific miracle. But they do cost points and tie up your entire Divine Favor powerset while in use. You're literally and straightforwardly buying Advantages as alternate abilities. That's only overpowered if, well, you think buying alternate abilities is overpowered.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:06 AM   #18
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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This is my dilemma. I can't figure out how to build a spell and reconcile it with the guidelines on page 5.
The guideline on page 9 literally tells you how to reconcile a learned prayer you're building with the guidelines on page 5, with a worked example from the book:

Adding enhancements like Affects Other and Cosmic can “bump” a miracle into the next category (while adding genuine value), and limitations like Limited Use or Takes Recharge can help bring down a miracle that seems overpriced.

If you feel that a Learned Prayer you're constructing is 'too cheap' and that its effects are too blatant or powerful for its 'minimum reaction' guideline, then add more enhancements until it fits a 'Good' reaction.

Or don't; it might suit the setting and deity in question that blatant effects are something priests do on the regular, and these are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:50 AM   #19
ericthered
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick_coffin View Post
I agree that druids need offensive capabilities, but Nature will not step in unless the attacker is an Enemy of Nature. Nature, after all, is all about those who are prey, and those doing the preying. You have been given natural tools (arms, legs, a brain capable of creating weapons and armor) to defend yourself. Dying in a fight with a tiger is part of the natural order -- your natural gifts are fairly pitted against the tiger's natural gifts of stealth, speed, strength, teeth, and claws. Thus my quote about "Nature, red in tooth and claw."
I'm going to disagree with that. You are not the proper prey of a tiger, nor is the tiger your proper prey, and a predator that attacks a party of adventurers is likely driven by unnatural forces. Or mad with hunger. Druids are usually portrayed as masters over minor elements of nature, not beholden to them. The miracle shouldn't help you slay the tiger and take its pelt, but it will absolutely help with scaring it off, befriending it, or negotiating with it. In most settings Druids are more powerful against nature, not less powerful. They aren't allowed to destroy it, but they are very good at neutralizing or controlling it.

Now, if you use the miracle to try and break your pact limitation, of course your learned prayers are going to stop working.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:09 PM   #20
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Default Re: Powers - Divine Favor: How to reconcile the guidelines with the math

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Originally Posted by Harald387 View Post
The guideline on page 9 literally tells you how to reconcile a learned prayer you're building with the guidelines on page 5, with a worked example from the book:

Adding enhancements like Affects Other and Cosmic can “bump” a miracle into the next category (while adding genuine value), and limitations like Limited Use or Takes Recharge can help bring down a miracle that seems overpriced.

If you feel that a Learned Prayer you're constructing is 'too cheap' and that its effects are too blatant or powerful for its 'minimum reaction' guideline, then add more enhancements until it fits a 'Good' reaction.
The problem I am having is that while it does tell me how to reconcile the differences, it doesn't do a good job of explaining the differences in the first place.

Case in point:

My player has built a simple prayer Razor Leaves (based on Universal Eggplant's spell https://enragedeggplant.blogspot.com...nt-spells.html).

Razor Leaves [1]
The druid throws a handful of Yew leaves at the target doing 2d+2 small piercing. Roll vs Innate Attack (Projectile) to hit. Since the leaves are light, the max damage is only possible out to 5 yards, and max range is 50 yards. It requires a Ready maneuver to get the leaves ready to attack. Finding appropriate Yew leaves is difficult and time consuming.

Innate Attack (Small Piercing, pi- 3/lvl, plus .3 lvl for each additional +1, 3*2.6=8) 2d+2 pi-, +8
- Divine, -10%
- No Knockback, -10% PU8:16 (Missing Damage Effect)
- Reduced Range, x1/2, -10% 1/2D 5, Max 50, Acc 3
- Requires Material Component, -10%
- [-40%/5]

Learned Prayer cost 5 x 0.2 = 1 pt.
Required Divine Favor level [4]

Given the Divine Favor guidelines (from page 5):
Quote:
Very Good: An undeniable miracle is sent – a spring appears to slake your thirst, you emit a holy light which destroys supernatural enemies, a gaping wound or horrible disease is instantly healed, etc.
Good: This is a more subtle miracle – the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc.
Neutral: You receive a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection.
A 2d+2 Pi- attack doesn't seem to fit in a "Neutral" reaction(a minor blessing, in the form of a realistic coincidence, a bonus to a roll, or a small amount of protection). Heck, it even seems more powerful than a "Good" reaction, the enemies’ guns jam, you gain knowledge of where your foes are and what they plan, you can hold off a horde of evil spirits, etc.

Unfortunately, the example prayers in the document are little help. For example, Spirit Weapon. That is such a convoluted prayer for so little damage.

Is it just not allowed to have small, low cost damage prayers in Divine Favor? All because of the vague as hell (my opinion only), strictures on page 5?
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