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Old 03-15-2019, 02:21 PM   #1
Thkaal
 
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Default Tech Level Question

A simple one, why was the TL table redrawn and became even more logarithmic?

The nuances seemed to have been utterly removed.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:24 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Thkaal View Post
A simple one, why was the TL table redrawn and became even more logarithmic?

The nuances seemed to have been utterly removed.
Can you give page references for the original table and the redrawn table? I'm not sure which versions you're asking about.
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Tech Level Question

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Originally Posted by Thkaal View Post
A simple one, why was the TL table redrawn and became even more logarithmic?

The nuances seemed to have been utterly removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Can you give page references for the original table and the redrawn table? I'm not sure which versions you're asking about.
I'm not sure what is being asked here either.

If anything nuances were added in 4e compared to either 1st through 3rd edition:

Borderline technology: TLOld-TLNew. Example: TL5-6. For societies in transition from one tech level to another.

Split technologies: TLPrimary (fields, TLSecondary). Example: TL8 (Communications TL7, Medical TL9). For societies more or less advanced in some fields.

Borrowed (familiar) technologies: TLKnown/Familiar. Example: TL1/2 (Bronze Age society familiar with Iron Age technology). For societies familiar with other level of technologies but not able (or willing) to replicate them.

Equivalent TL: what the TL appears to be due to Magic or Superscience. It may or may not actually be that TL.[1]

Superscience TL: Outside the normal TL scale: marked by ^. These are technologies that violate our current understanding of physical laws (relativity, conservation of energy, etc.).

The 3e Basic Set 6th printing still had the old Tech Level map on 185 (Bold is stuff that became Superscience in 4e):

0. Stone Age: fire, lever, language
1. Bronze Age (Athens): wheel, writing, agriculture
2. Iron Age (Rome): keystone arch
3. Medieval (pre-1450): steel weapons, mathematics with zero
4. Renaissance/Colonial (1450-1700): gunpowder, printing
5. Industrial Revolution (1701-1900): mass production, steam power, telegraph
6. World War I/World War II (1901-1950): cars, airplanes, radio
7. Modern (1951-2000): nuclear energy, computer, laser, rockets
8. Spacefaring (2001-2050?): slowerthan-light space travel, fusion power, implants
9. Starfaring: faster-than-light star travel, sentient computers, longevity, deteronic frombotzer
10. Antimatter: antimatter power, artificial gravity, slow FTL radio
11. Force: force screens, tractor beams, fast FTL radio
12. Gravitic: contragravity, grav compensators, personal force screens
13. Worldbuilding: full terraforming of planets
14. Dysonian: construction of worlds, ringworlds and so on
15. MT: matter transmission, cosmic power
16+. As you wish .

Last edited by maximara; 03-17-2019 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:52 PM   #4
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Default Re: Tech Level Question

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Originally Posted by Thkaal View Post
A simple one, why was the TL table redrawn and became even more logarithmic?

The nuances seemed to have been utterly removed.
Hi Thkaal,

Unlike previous respondents, I know exactly how you feel. In 3e we had 9 tech levels to look forward to in our future, and now we have 4. Each TL dominates the one before, so you can't have a scrappy society at TL11 holding out against an effete society at TL12. The futuristic TLs themselves are so broad that a GM has to consider where in the TL his campaign is - just started, mature, or halfway - and then figure out what that means in terms of equipment pricing and availability. What I don't know is why TLs were consolidated, but I've always speculated that it's because predicting future technological development is hard, and the more granular the TL scheme, the more controversial it will be.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:58 PM   #5
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Hi Thkaal,

Unlike previous respondents, I know exactly how you feel. In 3e we had 9 tech levels to look forward to in our future, and now we have 4. Each TL dominates the one before, so you can't have a scrappy society at TL11 holding out against an effete society at TL12. The futuristic TLs themselves are so broad that a GM has to consider where in the TL his campaign is - just started, mature, or halfway - and then figure out what that means in terms of equipment pricing and availability. What I don't know is why TLs were consolidated, but I've always speculated that it's because predicting future technological development is hard, and the more granular the TL scheme, the more controversial it will be.
Wasn't that the scheme that wasn't futurism at all, each TL was more or less a (usually super-science rich) SF setting with serial numbers filed off?
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:37 PM   #6
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This article might be of interest: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=1861
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:30 PM   #7
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This article might be of interest: http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/sample.html?id=1861
Note: this article has been out for ~19 years and the last prediction they threw away in 15 but lower size technology does still make some sense considering the ever shrinking size of processors and also the general apathy towards space
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:47 PM   #8
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Hi Thkaal,

Unlike previous respondents, I know exactly how you feel. In 3e we had 9 tech levels to look forward to in our future, and now we have 4. Each TL dominates the one before, so you can't have a scrappy society at TL11 holding out against an effete society at TL12. The futuristic TLs themselves are so broad that a GM has to consider where in the TL his campaign is - just started, mature, or halfway - and then figure out what that means in terms of equipment pricing and availability. What I don't know is why TLs were consolidated, but I've always speculated that it's because predicting future technological development is hard, and the more granular the TL scheme, the more controversial it will be.
David L. Pulver noted that he had to move equipment around so certain high TLs didn't look like voids. The TLs those devices now have are that they would have had if this hadn't been the case.

Since TLx+4 is not really understandable it makes sense that since we were at TL8 very early TL9 when GURPS 4e came out that TL12 was about as far as we could extrapolate as far as understanding was concerned. ("Incredibly advanced technologies are difficult to conceptualize, never mind use in play" - GURPS 4e Ultra-Tech 7)

Then there is superscience which changes the whole dynamic of tech levels as a lot of stuff that was assigned to future TL whatever in 3e got put into that category (FTL for example) turning what was already fragmentary TLs into more of a wasteland if not wiping them out entirely.

TLs 15 and 16+ are effectively gone thanks to superscience
Transportation 9+ only has Space Yachts, everything else is superscience
Weapons and Armor looses TLs 11, 12, 15, and 16+ to superscience.
Power has nothing new at TLs 11 and 12, gets pocket antimatter at 13 and goes superscience from there.
Medicine doesn't see anything past TL12 other than "Poof you're healed".

This is my main beef with Ultra-Tech. Bio-tech took the right approach and didn't use anything but "^" for its superscience stuff. Ultra-Tech on the other hand assigned a number TL with the superscience even though the Basic Set stated "Equipment TLs are always debatable, but superscience TLs are arbitrary." So assigning a number to "^" kind of defeats the whole reason for "^" in the first place as the number is effectively useless as demonstrated by Gernsback and its TL6^ Broadcast power (TL10^ in Ultra-Tech.)

Last edited by maximara; 03-17-2019 at 06:55 PM.
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Old 03-17-2019, 07:18 PM   #9
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This is my main beef with Ultra-Tech. Bio-tech took the right approach and didn't use anything but "^" for its superscience stuff. Ultra-Tech on the other hand assigned a number TL with the superscience even though the Basic Set stated "Equipment TLs are always debatable, but superscience TLs are arbitrary." So assigning a number to "^" kind of defeats the whole reason for "^" in the first place as the number is effectively useless as demonstrated by Gernsback and its TL6^ Broadcast power (TL10^ in Ultra-Tech.)
I think it's fair to say that superscience TLs aren't always arbitrary. Often, even usually, it isn't completely standing apart from the non-^ technology. Instead it's grounded in a certain amount of real science and technology, plus cheats. For instance, broadcast power makes sense at TL6, where electrical technology has begun to take off - but what would it even mean at TL3?

(Silly proto-seed: a setting with broadcast rotary power delivered via special receiver shafts, and drawn mainly from great waterwheels. Windmills and steam engines probably used in some cases.

Sillier, or less silly? Broadcast steam power, with relatively small devices that can remotely tap vast central boilers. Obviously these will be weaponized as steam rockets, steam cannons, and horrific short-ranged steam-throwers, in addition to making mobile steam engines much more compact and convenient.)

That isn't to say UT uses #^ TL asignments well, though.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:17 PM   #10
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David L. Pulver noted that he had to move equipment around so certain high TLs didn't look like voids. The TLs those devices now have are that they would have had if this hadn't been the case.

Since TLx+4 is not really understandable it makes sense that since we were at TL8 very early TL9 when GURPS 4e came out that TL12 was about as far as we could extrapolate as far as understanding was concerned. ("Incredibly advanced technologies are difficult to conceptualize, never mind use in play" - GURPS 4e Ultra-Tech 7)

Then there is superscience which changes the whole dynamic of tech levels as a lot of stuff that was assigned to future TL whatever in 3e got put into that category (FTL for example) turning what was already fragmentary TLs into more of a wasteland if not wiping them out entirely.

TLs 15 and 16+ are effectively gone thanks to superscience
Transportation 9+ only has Space Yachts, everything else is superscience
Weapons and Armor looses TLs 11, 12, 15, and 16+ to superscience.
Power has nothing new at TLs 11 and 12, gets pocket antimatter at 13 and goes superscience from there.
Medicine doesn't see anything past TL12 other than "Poof you're healed".

This is my main beef with Ultra-Tech. Bio-tech took the right approach and didn't use anything but "^" for its superscience stuff. Ultra-Tech on the other hand assigned a number TL with the superscience even though the Basic Set stated "Equipment TLs are always debatable, but superscience TLs are arbitrary." So assigning a number to "^" kind of defeats the whole reason for "^" in the first place as the number is effectively useless as demonstrated by Gernsback and its TL6^ Broadcast power (TL10^ in Ultra-Tech.)
There's a realm of possibility between "useless" and "mandatory". In particular while superscience it is going to be be linked to technology that actually has a tech level. Let me give you an example of applications of super science introduced at TLs 0 to 5.

TL 0: Our hunter gatherers transport their catch back to the village by cutting it up and strapping it onto floating sledges that can be towed back like balloons behind the hunters.

TL 1: Sky Chariots. Our bronze age warriors can make use of a buoyant alloy to make neutral buoyancy metal chariots and wagons which are drawn by trained flying animals.

TL 2: Air Galleys. Our iron age culture creates flying ships that have no sails but propel themselves using fan like oars that "row" through the air.

TL 3: The nobility and their servants dwell in impossible aerial fortifications connected by hollow pillars to the ground. People and goods float weightlessly up and down the passage inside the pillar. Airships are armed with siege weapons to threaten the fortifications. Meanwhile air mills rotate their vanes to remain in constant motion without need for wind.

TL 4. Airships have compasses and vanes that tilt to drive them slowly forward, enabling them to cross wide oceans. They are now armed with cannon that let them threaten the mightiest fortifications.

TL 5. Airships roam the sky, their steam engines driving propellers that push them forward at speeds that can reach over 30 miles per hour in a calm sky. Meanwhile huge, thickly armoured land ships crawl the ground using antigravity to keep themselves from sinking into the ground, and using artillery to fire both explosive and toxic gas shells.

These cultures can't build the classic flying saucer because the classic flying saucer requires beam weapons, metallurgy, air recycling, computers and things I didn't think of off-hand that just having one bit of superscience doesn't give them. What's more the applications of the super science have to be balanced against the rest of the technology. At TL 2, the sky chariots have to be open both so that the occupants can shoot from them but also so they can be shot from them.
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