Considering the standard 5 Mile Hex for TFT

[Jim Kane]

I am answering this post by Terquem here, so not to clog-up the thread about the Kickstarter where it was posted originally.

Originally Posted by Terquem

I know I am a little weird when it comes to small insignificant details, but if we hit $250,000 and get those poster maps I so hope the scale on the maps isn't given in some weird 1 hex is 22 meters (when the hex is a fraction of an inch) Please let it be in a conventional map scale, a simple ratio of 1:(x) would be great.

Not weird at all Terquem. The original TFT large map scale was 12.5km to the hex - which converts to roughly 7 3/4 miles per hex. That scale does not relate to many other game company products, who, on the majority, used the traditional 5-mile hex (and in some cases, the 6-mile hex).

The *why* behind the 5-mile hex (or 6-mile hex in some cases) being the accepted standard for so many FRPG products is simply because:

1) An average person (assuming for a reasonable levels of encumbrance) typically walks 15 - 18 miles a day across open terrain in an 8-hour period (faster on roads, slower through woods and mountains) averaging 2-3 mph with breaks for rest and typical minor anomalies in the terrain and natural changes in topography. This produces a map scale of roughly 20-25 miles (ave. 22.5 miles) to the inch on a typical hex sheet (depending if you are measuring the long-grain or the short-grain on the hex map). See blank hex sheet in appendix of TFT:ITL.

2) Using the standard 5-mile hex, an average party under average conditions would typically make 3 hexes per day on the large scale map, whereas a a motivated Roman Army party under "forced march" conditions could do 4 mph for 5 hours - which would equate to 20 miles covered, or 4 hexes per day; in either case, making the mileage-math easy to factor for the GM going by 5's and using the 5-Mile Hex.

3) Using the 5-Mile Hex would allow TFT products with their own maps to also be used by players of other systems, and vice-versa, by dovetailing perfectly with the maps and products produced by TSR, Judges Guild, et al.

Some good things to think about when considering a desired overland map-scale for TFT into the future.

JK

[Terquem]

A hex, of any size, is an “overlay” tool which can be used to count distances on a map

Any map (all maps) are created at a given scale

Scales are not universal or necessarily conventional

The USGS uses many scales, one of particular interest to me, because I like to hike on easy trails where I have a reasonable good chance of not getting lost, is used on the 7.5 minute map, which shows an area of land that covers a distance on the globe (east to west) of 7.5 minutes of arc. The scale for most 7.5 minute maps (which is derived from the size of the sheet of paper which will show the 7.5 minutes of arc) is 1:24,000, or 1 unit on the map is equal to 24,000 units in the real world.

The nice thing about scales like this is that they are “unit-less” and do not need to be tied to anything particular, like millimeters or inches.

Once you fix on a scale you like, say for an 8.5”x11” piece of paper, a scale of 1:3,600, meaning 1 unit on the paper is 3,600 units in the real world, you can easily measure the distance on the map, you measure 5 inches and multiply by 3,600, giving 18,000 inches, or 1500 feet, to know the distance it represents in the “real world” (the world the map represents).

For reference I chose that scale because it is the scale of the Bendwyn map included in the original Game Master's Module of The Fantasy Trip: In the Labyrinth


When you add an “overlay” (a grid or hex system) you are only giving map users a quick and easy tool to measure those map units. You can list, in the map margin (the area reserved for information to the user for understanding the map), a ruler, or scale bar to show a graphical representation of the Scale (usually given in inches, but can also be given in SI values), or describe an overlay and its relationship to the map.

Now, gamers like hexes, so we have a history of overlaying hexes on the top of maps at various scales and saying “1 Hex = (x) Miles” or something like this. This can be handy for quickly counting hexes and cross referencing the number of hexes to a land movement rate chart.

But as Jim is saying above, how do we decide on the size of the Hex?

What is the typical distance walked in an average day (say 8 to 10 hours of travelling light conditions) by the typical adventurer (not say the typical townsfolk type who might not be in a great hurry to get from “here” to “there”).

We can use this “walking day” distance to fix our Hex size, calculating the distance in the real world, converting it to the map scale distance, and setting the hex, “side to side”, distance at that value. Or perhaps divide that by two or three for distances walked for each encounter check if the wilderness area has a certain chance for encounters to occur after a specific amount of time and distance have been covered.

Or, as I often do, you can set the hex size based upon a fixed hex size that is already used in the game.

You can start with one hex on the Encounter Map surface is 3 feet in the real world (or 5 feet in the real world, whichever is your preference), and if your hex is 1 inch across this yields a scale of 1:36 (or 1:80). Then you can keep reproducing larger hexes that include a fixed number of smaller hexes as you create maps showing larger areas. In the world of mapping this is drawing the map at progressively smaller scales (remember that “Scale” is a ratio, like “one divided by thirty-six”) and smaller scales means that the number on the right of the ratio gets larger (the product of dividing the scale produces a “smaller” number, got it?).

If you draw your maps in fixed ratios (not scale ratios) derived from the increasing number of hexes each new hex you put on your map represents you come to something like this, while maintaining a fixed hex size (let’s pick .45 inches, but any change in the size of the hex will change the numbers in this table)

Hex Sheet Type | 1 hex = (1 hex is .45 inches) | Scale 1” = (x) | Name

Hx1 | 59,049 feet |1:1,574,640 (1”= 24.85 miles) | Continent Map
Hx2 | 19,683 feet | 1:524.880 (1” = 8.28 miles) | Kingdom Map
Hx3 | 6,561 feet | 1:174,960 (1” = 2.76 miles) | Duchy Map
Hx4 | 2,187 feet | 1:58,320 (1” = 4860 feet) | Township Map
Hx5 | 729 feet | 1:19,440 (1” = 1620 feet) | City Map
Hx6 | 243 feet | 1:6,480 (1” = 540 feet) | Town Map
Hx7 | 81 feet | 1:2,160 (1” = 180 feet) | Village Map
Hx8 | 27 feet | 1:720 (1” = 60 feet) | Hamlet Map
Hx9 | 9 feet | 1:240 (1”= 20 feet) | Labyrinth Map rendering
Hx10 | 3 feet | 1:80 (1" = 5 feet) | Play Mat rendering

If, on the other hand you decide you want your overland maps to have a hex overlay that is a comfortable round number of miles, or feet, you would then find that as you “zoomed” in on the map (if you could do such a thing) the game play hexes you use would not conform to an easily understood number of hexes per hex (or to put it another way, you would not be able to say, this “Hex” on the overland map is equal to (x) “Labyrinth” Hexes or (x.n) megaHexes.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by Terquem

A hex, of any size, is an “overlay” tool which can be used to count distances on a map ...

If, on the other hand you decide you want your overland maps to have a hex overlay that is a comfortable round number of miles, or feet, you would then find that as you “zoomed” in on the map (if you could do such a thing) the game play hexes you use would not conform to an easily understood number of hexes per hex (or to put it another way, you would not be able to say, this “Hex” on the overland map is equal to (x) “Labyrinth” Hexes or (x.n) megaHexes.

Hi Terquem,
Nice post. In the old TFT, we had hexes, Megahexes (Mh), Mega-megahexes, etc. (I called these Lv1, Lv2, Lv3 hexes etc.)

The "Lords of the Underearth" (LotU) hexes were specifically defined to be Lv4 hexes, and they are the largest hexes I outlined on my Chessex 1" battle map. By making the smallest hexes a smidge over 1 meter across, the LotU hexes (Lv4) were precisely 20 meters across. (If they were a bit over 1.33 meters in size, then the LotU hexes are exactly 25 meters across.) I expanded the scale higher as well.

I went with a 'smidge' over 1 meter. Why? Well if you measured distances along the hex grain, the estimate 1 hex = 1 meter was a bit short. But if you measured distance along the alternate hex grain, the estimate 1 hex = 1 meter was a bit long. So I split the difference and said that you could estimate distances at 1 hex = 1 meter and you were never far off.

But in practice, this never helped me. I never needed to divide a hex on a region scale map into 7 smaller hexes on a more detailed map.

Most of the maps I draw are at various scales, and don't have hexes on them in any case. The most typical scale for local maps is 1 mm on the map becomes 1 km in world (1:1,000,000 scale).

Anyway, if SJG publishes maps at some scale (1:100,000), that is fine. If they make maps where one hex is 5 miles, that is fine. I don't mind either way.

The 1:24,000 scale (7.5 minutes of an arc), is important only for people on Earth. Cidri is a lot bigger, and the size is deliberately undefined, so 1:24,000 scale is nothing special there.

***

Now, there is a kicker in all this. Let us say that they define the small Melee hex to be 4.53 feet across. (Some weird number I guessed at.) By playing with the scale of the smallest hex, they could make it so that at a 1:524,880 scale, one 11 mm hex on their standard maps is exactly 5 miles across.

Or they could play with the hex size. Maybe a 4 foot hex at 1:250,000 scale will make a 13 mm hex exactly 5 miles across.

However, most of TFT is played at the Melee map scale, and a weird number is unlikely to fly. I've seen two sizes for the Melee hexes suggested on these forums. 5 feet (good space for a guy swinging a sword around), and 3 feet (nice because you can get 3 people abreast in a 10 foot wide corridor).

The old TFT had Melee hexes which were 1.333 meters across. This is equal to 4.37 feet. So I think that the new TFT is likely to decide that a Melee hex is 4 feet or 5 feet across. (My guess is that a yard wide hex is too crowded to fly.)

***

Anyway, this is just a long winded way for me to say that I'm not much worried about maps with hexes nesting inside each other. If the small scale maps have a bar at the bottom, or a scale written somewhere (1:10,000 or 1 hex = 3 Imperial Leagues), it is fine with me.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Chris Rice]

My large scale maps were 20 miles as I figured that was how far you would travel in a day at a reasonable pace on decent terrain. That made it easy for me to work out how many days travel everything was from a given point. I don't see the point of 5 or 6 mile hexes.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

I went with a 'smidge' over 1 meter. Why? Well if you measured distances along the hex grain, the estimate 1 hex = 1 meter was a bit short. But if you measured distance along the alternate hex grain, the estimate 1 hex = 1 meter was a bit long. So I split the difference and said that you could estimate distances at 1 hex = 1 meter and you were never far off.

We used the same rational, and for the same reasons, when we came to draw maps at the 1" = 22.5 miles - splitting the difference between just over 3 hexes on the short grain, and just under 4 hexes on the long-grain (if I have my grains correct) - based around splitting the difference between typical walking speeds and forced march walking-speeds.

So, 1" = 22.5 miles, and overlaid with the 5-Mile hex pattern, worked like magic for us.

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I don't see the point of 5 or 6 mile hexes.

Chris, read Gygax on the 5 and 6 miles hex for maps on page 42 Dungeon Masters Guide, 1st edition, 1979; all shall be revealed... or, go back and read the OP as well.

JK

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

We used the same rational, and for the same reasons, when we came to draw maps at the 1" = 22.5 miles - splitting the difference between just over 3 hexes on the short grain, and just under 4 hexes on the long-grain (if I have my grains correct) - based around splitting the difference between typical walking speeds and forced march walking-speeds.

So, 1" = 22.5 miles, and overlaid with the 5-Mile hex pattern, worked like magic for us.

Chris, read Gygax on the 5 and 6 miles hex for maps on page 42 Dungeon Masters Guide, 1st edition, 1979; all shall be revealed... or, go back and read the OP as well.

JK

My copy of the DMs guide is long gone! I can see the point of the smaller hexes but I'm lazy and prefer "1 hex = 1 days march." That's works for me and it's easy.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

...I'm lazy and prefer "1 hex = 1 days march." That's works for me and it's easy.

Then that is exactly what you should work with for your maps.

But out of curiosity, at that scale, how far does a party travel through swamp or mountain hexes in one day?

JK

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Then that is exactly what you should work with for your maps.

But out of curiosity, at that scale, how far does a party travel through swamp or mountain hexes in one day?

JK

Rough terrain cuts travel to 2 days per hex. Very rough terrain 3 days per hex although a local guide/maps of secret trails could cut that down.

[Jim Kane]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

Rough terrain cuts travel to 2 days per hex. Very rough terrain 3 days per hex although a local guide/maps of secret trails could cut that down.

Well, if you are happy with that, then that is what you should stick with. So, how far does your Adventure Party's travel on a paved "Roman Road" across flat, open country in a day?

JK

[Chris Rice]

Originally Posted by Jim Kane

Well, if you are happy with that, then that is what you should stick with. So, how far does your Adventure Party's travel on a paved "Roman Road" across flat, open country in a day?

JK

1 hex Jim. I told you I was lazy!