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Old 12-04-2017, 09:33 AM   #41
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
The sole point of the restriction of the spell is the Spell is in the Technology Collage and it was thematically inappropriate to use the spell directly on natural forces, but instead its meant to merge technology with magic. And sail boat is way more technology involved in that many of the thing people don't bat their eye at use this spell on. It makes less seances to be quibbling over why type of machine it is when and your kidding yourself it not a machine is when a Slope and Wedge have been considered machines siance the founding of physics. the have zero problem recognize the thematic limitation of the staff spell when it get in the way of fiction artctyl of a sword wielding wizard.

A sailing bow harnesses natural energy (wind) to do use full work (transport passengers and cargo) it is a technology based machine. a technology more over of key importantce in the history of techlnoly it only been over showed by electricity and gunpowder in how it has shaped the modern world.
I guess my question is does the Spell consider the slope and wedge "machines" in this context?
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:40 AM   #42
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
The definition that applies to this spell is that the power to be drawn upon must be in a form that would be usable to a machine. At TL6 this usually means mechanical power or electrical power.

It can't just be "energy" whether that be kinetic energy of a vehicle's motion, the thermal energy of a fire or several other things. It isn't the energy that's the important part it's the "in a form usable by a machine" that is.
I think the problem is "in a form usable by a machine" seem open to interpretation both in term of usable form and machine

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
It might be illuminating to look at Draw Power's predecessor Spell, Lend Power. If you wanted your sailing ship to go faster could you cast Lend Power on it? No, the spell for that is Propel. That would make your ship go faster even if there was no wind at all.
Yeah i think going by system intent seems to be the better way to go than real word definition of machines, and how other spells work and overlap seem a reasonable way to dthat.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
The sole point of the restriction of the spell is the Spell is in the Technology Collage and it was thematically inappropriate to use the spell directly on natural forces, but instead its meant to merge technology with magic. And sail boat is way more technology involved in that many of the thing people don't bat their eye at use this spell on. It makes less seances to be quibbling over why type of machine it is when and your kidding yourself it not a machine is when a Slope and Wedge have been considered machines siance the founding of physics. the have zero problem recognize the thematic limitation of the staff spell when it get in the way of fiction artctyl of a sword wielding wizard.
Neither a slope nor a wedge is a "machine" in the sense in which that spell describes machines. Neither of them is a power source that converts energy for some other device to use, like a water wheel turning a shaft or a photovoltaic cell producing electric current. And neither of them is taking power from another mechanism and converting it into work.

The fact that they are called "machines" in a different context, for a different type of discussion, simply isn't relevant. Treating the two senses of the word as if they were interchangeable is an example of the fallacy of equivocation.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:44 AM   #44
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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I guess my question is does the Spell consider the slope and wedge "machines" in this context?
if you mean the generated force via technology "that could be used directly by a machine" they yes, if the technology can generation a force the can lift an object by pushing it up a slope, or split object by driving the wedge, or pull in a pully, or turn a screw, they a sailboat , the it's a man made object that prove the motive force to move an Object from Point A to Point B over coming the friction force of water by hanging thew natural energy of the wind, redirecting it into a useful direction to do useful work
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:56 AM   #45
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Neither a slope nor a wedge is a "machine" in the sense in which that spell describes machines. Neither of them is a power source that converts energy for some other device to use, like a water wheel turning a shaft or a photovoltaic cell producing electric current. And neither of them is taking power from another mechanism and converting it into work.

The fact that they are called "machines" in a different context, for a different type of discussion, simply isn't relevant. Treating the two senses of the word as if they were interchangeable is an example of the fallacy of equivocation.
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if you mean the generated force via technology "that could be used directly by a machine" they yes, if the technology can generation a force the can lift an object by pushing it up a slope, or split object by driving the wedge, or pull in a pully, or turn a screw, they a sailboat , the it's a man made object that prove the motive force to move an Object from Point A to Point B over coming the friction force of water by hanging thew natural energy of the wind, redirecting it into a useful direction to do useful work
I think that you risk doing what whswhs' line in bold is describing.


To go back to ships. Weather or not ship's count for the spell, there does seem to be two different senses of the word machine here.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:02 AM   #46
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Treating the two senses of the word as if they were interchangeable is an example of the fallacy of equivocation.
It's not a fallacy of equivocation when the argument the destination between the two is in opposition of the point of the spell, I'm saying becuase they both called machines, because I can argue machoines can be futher subdivided, I'm saying the further subdivision is against the intent of the spell, whine the sole point of the restion isn't balance but limit the spell the collages theme of technology Are are You using the fallacy in rewferance to say sailboard are not technology with the meaning the college?

I'm Not saying they're their and there are the same thing because of equivalent pronunciation i'm saying the making saying an apple and not an orange is a distraction when you only care that theire fruit, the the further subdivision isn't relevant to the point

Were' talking bout equivocating over the word of spell when the wording in the case in country to it's obvious intent when we talking about a book the university acknowledged to have been poorly adapting to edition. I'm saying the entire of the reason is you can't using a waterfall any more you must use a water wheel, you can't Use the Win you must use technology the harness the power of the wind to use useful work. a sailboat does so. I find it absurd to Ignore the point of spell and allow the less efficient technology of windmill driven paddle boat to be used with the spell and denigh the more efficient technology of a sailboat.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:15 AM   #47
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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It's not a fallacy of equivocation when the argument the destination between the two is in opposition of the point of the spell, I'm saying becuase they both called machines, because I can argue machoines can be futher subdivided, I'm saying the further subdivision is against the intent of the spell, whne the sole point of the restion isn't blalance but limit the spell the collages theme of technology Are are You using the falciny in rerace to say sailboard are not technelogy with the meaning the college?
Just because something is "technology" doesn't mean that every spell listed in the college applies to it. There is a spell that's designed to apply to vehicles, "Propel," I think; you couldn't use it to make a box fan fly through the air, because a box fan isn't a vehicle. It would be just silly if you said, "Are you saying box fans are not technology?"

What "machine" means for the purposes of Draw Power is made clear by the way the spell is described, and by the statements at the start of the chapter, and to some degree by the spell's relationship to other spells. The fact that other things can be called "machines" for other purposes isn't relevant if they don't have the features the spell assumes.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:17 AM   #48
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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Just because something is "technology" doesn't mean that every spell listed in the college applies to it. There is a spell that's designed to apply to vehicles, "Propel," I think; you couldn't use it to make a box fan fly through the air, because a box fan isn't a vehicle. It would be just silly if you said, "Are you saying box fans are not technology?"

What "machine" means for the purposes of Draw Power is made clear by the way the spell is described, and by the statements at the start of the chapter, and to some degree by the spell's relationship to other spells. The fact that other things can be called "machines" for other purposes isn't relevant if they don't have the features the spell assumes.
Just Ban the spell or see you sea going mages just build a windmill powered paddle boat the of lower less effecint tech just to mock the setting
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:24 AM   #49
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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To go back to ships. Weather or not ship's count for the spell, there does seem to be two different senses of the word machine here.
The model assumed by the spell seems to be this:

There is a power source, that takes energy from one place and converts it into a different form.

There is a mechanism, that takes the new form of energy and uses it to do work.

There is a system on which work is done.

So, for example: Electrical generator provides electric current. Electric current flows through power line to resistance heater. Heater heats room.

Or: Steam engine turns a shaft. Shaft turns a propeller. Propeller pushes a ship through the water.

But with a sailboat: Sails provide thrust, using the energy of the wind. Thrust—does what? It seems to act on the whole ship, pushing it through the water. But the ship isn't doing work on a third object, so it's not the mechanism. On the other hand, if the ship is the system on which work is done, where is the mechanism? There doesn't seem to be one. The thrust from the sails and mast goes directly into the ship itself. There are only two terms.

Now, it seems as if the spell Propel could fit a situation with two terms, and there could be a spell analogous to Propel that slowed a vehicle as a whole, and drew power from it. Instead of taking power off the shaft of a steamship, and slowing the propeller, and thus slowing the ship by diminishing its thrust, it would slow the ship directly; and it could slow a sailing ship directly the same way. But Draw Power doesn't seem to be that spell.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:14 AM   #50
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Default Re: Sailing ships at TL3

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But with a sailboat: Sails provide thrust, using the energy of the wind. Thrust—does what? It seems to act on the whole ship, pushing it through the water. But the ship isn't doing work on a third object, so it's not the mechanism.
yes it is the 3rd object is the Passenger and Cargos it is movies 3rd object from point A to point B sailboat don't exist to move themselves; like a toy
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