nature of Role

xerxes · 04-26-2011, 06:47 AM

Is a Role something that has to be created the hard way or is it a supernatural construct?

Does a celestial have to go through the tedious task of creating it bit by bit in a mundae way? Or, does it just "magically" appear in the world thereby potentially changing major parts of reality in the blink of an eye?

thorr-kan · 04-26-2011, 08:17 AM

Yes.

The thing is, thoughts vary among the fandom about this. Though the game assumes that a Role is mostly the result of work, it all doesn't have to be by the current Role-holder. Creation and early maintenance could have been farmed out to relievers, imps, gremlins, or your Boss's bureaucracy.

Liber Serv. has a good expanded section on Roles.

William · 04-26-2011, 10:04 AM

Almost by definition, a Role can't be a supernatural construct, because it reflects the degree to which you've interacted with humanity and the corporeal world, building an identity that humans accept as natural. Even the "automatic" Roles that Nybbas' and Asmodeus' servants get have been built up by demonlings and by demons that are well-placed to alter records and skilled at manipulating mass perceptions. Laurence's Kyriotates have an exception because the accepted identity they inhabit is already part of the Symphony. Grigori get an automatic bonus to Role, but that's about as far as supernatural effects can go.

A Superior might be able to whistle up a Role, but it would likely be an incredibly energy-intensive act. To give an example, we have canonical Songs to create celestials (the Celestial Song of Life), but not for creating a Role. The Superiors most able to do it would probably be, well, Asmodeus and Nybbas, along with Yves and possibly Kronos, and maybe Song using her innate Role theme.

johndallman · 04-26-2011, 10:40 AM

The other side of a role, of course, is its use against its owner. Just demolishing roles is a bad idea - it risks the humans getting the idea that there are people around who seem to have come from nowhere, and that gets intelligence agencies involved. There's a more interesting way to do it: Rolebusters!

JCD · 04-26-2011, 04:17 PM

You worm your way into the lives of humans. By proxy, you've wormed your way into the Symphony THOUGH the senses of the humans.

Now, there is some question (at least in my mind) if a human watching and/or unaware of the Role is necessary.

For example: Rufio is a brute motorcycle dude. When his chums see him pound on some Yuppie, they chuckle and say "That's Rufio."

Now, what happens if Rufio does it in a suit and tie? He has no 'props' to make it acceptable to unknowing bystanders.

What happens if Rufio works over a human in the middle of a desert where no one is around?

If you take the 'immunization' view of Roles, that means that the Symphony's 'antibodies' now recognize you as being X. So if you do X things, then it's fine. When you stray from being X, you become Y and they dance on your rear.

If you take the 'Filter' view, you need human perceptions and shorthand to fill in the blanks. Rufio CAN get away with it around people who don't know him as long as A) some people know the Role, and B) he provides the props for the mental shorthand necessary to think 'Biker beat Yuppie. Yup, makes sense"

Edited to add: If you start with props, you don't automatically get Role protection, but you get a Role quicker if you fit into preconceptions. A standard guy dressed as a middle class schlub who picks fights doesn't fit into an iconic image. A biker, a cop, or a soldier does. Thus establishing a role as a hit man is VERY hard to do. You need to be well known by a body of people as a hit man...which leads to it's own complications....

JCD · 04-26-2011, 04:36 PM

But to answer your question:

Yes, a Superior probably can make a Role. In one of my games, Fleurity took a man who committed suicide and went to hell, took most of his memories, grafted it to a demon, and gave him the same body. Instant role.

Other methods include false memories, geasing acceptance, and a blizzard of supporting paperwork.

I believe I started a thread, or at least made mention of some angels, particularly in Asian culture, making a role the hard way, by being an infant or child and working one's way up. This is hard and time consuming but they are virtually bullet proof. (Role/6+ Heck, that's probably why the Grigori get the bonus. It isn't a supernatural effect. They've done a HUGE amount of pick and shovel work, both in knowing how to be human, having inordinant family relations, and having the time to methodically put together another passport etc.)

johndallman · 04-26-2011, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

In one of my games, Fleurity took a man who committed suicide and went to hell, took most of his memories, grafted it to a demon, and gave him the same body. Instant role.

Actually the same body, or a vessel that looks exactly like it, with the same wear and tear, matching DNA, and soon?

Something useful for Superiors to be able to do for role work is to transfer a vessel from one of their servitors to another. That's kind of required if a minor celestial is to do the long job of living through the history of a role.

JCD · 04-27-2011, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johndallman

Actually the same body, or a vessel that looks exactly like it, with the same wear and tear, matching DNA, and soon?

Something useful for Superiors to be able to do for role work is to transfer a vessel from one of their servitors to another. That's kind of required if a minor celestial is to do the long job of living through the history of a role.

My mistake. It was a vessel which was the same as the original, just with the Celestial upgrades.

It's canon from LS and GMG, IIRC, that Superiors can swap vessels. I'm betting it's both hard and unsavory, sort of like swapping chewing gum or underwear.

Jason · 04-27-2011, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

It's canon from LS and GMG, IIRC, that Superiors can swap vessels. I'm betting it's both hard and unsavory, sort of like swapping chewing gum or underwear.

And it's possible the celestials in question don't even need to be willing to partake in the trade, opening up the possibility of stolen-role plots. There's even one mention in canon of...

Spoiler:

Archangel Beth · 05-03-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

And it's possible the celestials in question don't even need to be willing to partake in the trade, opening up the possibility of stolen-role plots.

If a Superior has a lesser celestial in its clutches (having the celestial's Heart counts as "in its clutches), then there is pretty much no limit on the pure Force manipulation that can be done -- got a nice vessel there? Pick the vessel-notes out of the Forces and implant them in a different celestial, or into the non-canon-but-ubiquitous "constructs" that can be handed to random Servitors to imprint into their own Forces. Want some stray Ethereal Forces? Sure, right there. Grab a Corporeal Force while you're at it. Just don't unfold that last Celestial Force too much, or you lose the whole thing.

Example: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/art...aph.Birdy.html
(And the fluffy fanfic pertaining to Birdy: http://www.sjgames.com/in-nomine/art...aya/birdy.html )

Must run get kid to bed!

04-26-2011, 06:47 AM	#1
xerxes Join Date: Jul 2005	nature of Role Is a Role something that has to be created the hard way or is it a supernatural construct? Does a celestial have to go through the tedious task of creating it bit by bit in a mundae way? Or, does it just "magically" appear in the world thereby potentially changing major parts of reality in the blink of an eye?

04-26-2011, 08:17 AM	#2
thorr-kan Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: nature of Role Yes. The thing is, thoughts vary among the fandom about this. Though the game assumes that a Role is mostly the result of work, it all doesn't have to be by the current Role-holder. Creation and early maintenance could have been farmed out to relievers, imps, gremlins, or your Boss's bureaucracy. Liber Serv. has a good expanded section on Roles.

04-26-2011, 10:04 AM	#3
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: nature of Role Almost by definition, a Role can't be a supernatural construct, because it reflects the degree to which you've interacted with humanity and the corporeal world, building an identity that humans accept as natural. Even the "automatic" Roles that Nybbas' and Asmodeus' servants get have been built up by demonlings and by demons that are well-placed to alter records and skilled at manipulating mass perceptions. Laurence's Kyriotates have an exception because the accepted identity they inhabit is already part of the Symphony. Grigori get an automatic bonus to Role, but that's about as far as supernatural effects can go. A Superior might be able to whistle up a Role, but it would likely be an incredibly energy-intensive act. To give an example, we have canonical Songs to create celestials (the Celestial Song of Life), but not for creating a Role. The Superiors most able to do it would probably be, well, Asmodeus and Nybbas, along with Yves and possibly Kronos, and maybe Song using her innate Role theme.

04-26-2011, 10:40 AM	#4
johndallman Night Watchman Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cambridge, UK	Re: nature of Role The other side of a role, of course, is its use against its owner. Just demolishing roles is a bad idea - it risks the humans getting the idea that there are people around who seem to have come from nowhere, and that gets intelligence agencies involved. There's a more interesting way to do it: Rolebusters!

04-26-2011, 04:17 PM	#5
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: nature of Role You worm your way into the lives of humans. By proxy, you've wormed your way into the Symphony THOUGH the senses of the humans. Now, there is some question (at least in my mind) if a human watching and/or unaware of the Role is necessary. For example: Rufio is a brute motorcycle dude. When his chums see him pound on some Yuppie, they chuckle and say "That's Rufio." Now, what happens if Rufio does it in a suit and tie? He has no 'props' to make it acceptable to unknowing bystanders. What happens if Rufio works over a human in the middle of a desert where no one is around? If you take the 'immunization' view of Roles, that means that the Symphony's 'antibodies' now recognize you as being X. So if you do X things, then it's fine. When you stray from being X, you become Y and they dance on your rear. If you take the 'Filter' view, you need human perceptions and shorthand to fill in the blanks. Rufio CAN get away with it around people who don't know him as long as A) some people know the Role, and B) he provides the props for the mental shorthand necessary to think 'Biker beat Yuppie. Yup, makes sense" Edited to add: If you start with props, you don't automatically get Role protection, but you get a Role quicker if you fit into preconceptions. A standard guy dressed as a middle class schlub who picks fights doesn't fit into an iconic image. A biker, a cop, or a soldier does. Thus establishing a role as a hit man is VERY hard to do. You need to be well known by a body of people as a hit man...which leads to it's own complications....

04-26-2011, 04:36 PM	#6
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: nature of Role But to answer your question: Yes, a Superior probably can make a Role. In one of my games, Fleurity took a man who committed suicide and went to hell, took most of his memories, grafted it to a demon, and gave him the same body. Instant role. Other methods include false memories, geasing acceptance, and a blizzard of supporting paperwork. I believe I started a thread, or at least made mention of some angels, particularly in Asian culture, making a role the hard way, by being an infant or child and working one's way up. This is hard and time consuming but they are virtually bullet proof. (Role/6+ Heck, that's probably why the Grigori get the bonus. It isn't a supernatural effect. They've done a HUGE amount of pick and shovel work, both in knowing how to be human, having inordinant family relations, and having the time to methodically put together another passport etc.)