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Old 04-13-2010, 09:30 PM   #21
Orlin
 
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Default Re: Gaming and the Corporate World

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Originally Posted by ladyarcana55 View Post
In the West Coast? In L.A? HA!

In California, you CANNOT have automatic weaponry. In a lot of places, you can't. Cali has some of the toughest gun laws in the country. Mass and New York being the other states. This, I speak from experience.
I don't personally know how bad the gun control laws are in California, but I don't doubt your word. I live in Orlando, and from what I understand it's exceptionally easy to secure a concealed weapon's permit. I had no idea that the gun control laws would be as severe as you say.

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HA HA HA HA HA! Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
I'm not sure what's so funny. Is it the audacity that H&K would even be able to HAVE an LA Branch that makes you laugh? I can see that, I suppose. With as much gang violence as exists in LA, I think it makes things interesting. For example, what if some diabolical influence inside of the corporation was funneling out shipments to a dealer that didn't exist, with further investigations revealing that someone is fueling the rivalry between the Bloods and Cryps? Not sure if that's an accurate statement -- I know next to nothing about LA, but I know there are some darker parts of the city.

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Again, speaking from experience, just because you are ex-military DOES NOT MEAN you would have a license. If anything it puts him on their radar because he has the training and the means to use them. Trust me, I know.
This is exactly why I turned to the board for help. I have no idea what licenses a person would be issued if he or she was active military, although I am aware that people who are in the military are often trained to use powerful weaponry. If someone has the proper training to use a weapon, it means that the government has deemed that person responsible enough to carry it, maintain it and employ it on the field. In theory, that should make him less of a threat in the eyes of society than some random thug without any respect for the weapon.

Unfortunately, I'm also aware that a great many long distance serial killers have a military background.

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To get some of the big weapons, or rather to have permission to have some of the big weapons, he would need a Class 3 gun permit. That is only given to government employees and they are almost constantly being watched by the feds. They can always be stripped of the permit.
Are these permits issued to people with active military status? Can they be retained, or are they always stripped once the person becomes a civilian?

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Another option is a CCW (Carry Concealed Weapon) and you need express permission from the Chief of Police or the Mayor. One of our friends is going for a CCW and he has been on that for the last 6 months. He's law enforcement so he doesn't have to jump through as many hoops as your guy would.
I don't know about this. Remember, the guy is a COO of a major corporation (albeit a fictional branch) that supplies Law Enforcement and military with powerful weaponry. He may be politically connected.

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If he has a dealer's license he would be able to have possession of guns, but what makes him think they wouldn't record who has what? They have to, otherwise it's lawsuits up the wazoo.
This is where it gets interesting. You're not the first person to mention the word "dealer's license." Now, being the president of H&K LA, would the character have a dealer's license, or would that be granted exclusively to the company? One thing I learned when looking up answers on Wikipedia (not the most reliable source, I admit) was that corporations can be granted human rights and even be charged of crimes. Can they be issued licenses?

If the corporation is granted the dealer's license, my assumption would be that the guns could only be stored in the corporate office and shipped out to local vendors, which would in turn distribute to small businesses such as local pawn shops, hunting stores, etc. If the character, by virtue of his position, possessed a dealer's license, would that entitle him to possess military grade weaponry?

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And if someone bought 8 or 10 pistols from you, wouldn't YOU worry? And if it's an employee, how do they know he's not reselling them on the streets and making an additional profit? I used to work at a video game company and we had a limit to the number of games we can buy. Why wouldn't a weapons company?
I would absolutely be worried! But I'm not an angel of the Lord -- and from what I understand, Heckler and Koch (and Michael) aren't exactly known for their ethical practices. While H&K is a rock solid company that distributes powerful weaponry, there have been reports (again, according to Wikipedia), that they have contributed to a great deal of strife in Nepal and Bosnia. As the COO of the company, he might be responsible if there were discrepancies in the inventory, or if someone investigated and discovered that one of their vendors didn't really exist. So far, however, the character hasn't used his Songs to infiltrate the company HQ and steal any new prototypes.

But if Michael the Archangel told me "Your choir-brother, Andremalech, is in need of a submachine gun. Provide it, my blessed son, and know that you do so with my love," I wouldn't worry one bit.

Of course, if Andre made a bloody mess of some gangbangers, and Officer Rivera discovered the crime scene, or got vessel-killed while holding an H&K submachine gun that was registered to Alexander...

Well, that would be interesting indeed.

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He would have to pull them off the line for it to fly under their radar. Because he would have to grab them before they stamp them. Once guns are off the line they are very carefully monitored. Eventually ballistics and other forensics would point to an inside man. It wouldn't be a question of if but when.
Now, when you say "on the radar" you are, of course, referring to the police? This was another question that I wanted to raise, knowing very little about murder investigations (apart from the info provided by Criminal Minds.)

Say that I have a high powered civilian rifle. I shoot someone in the head. CSI shows up, discovers the body and retrieves the bullet -- can they then trace the bullet to my weapon, or do they simply know what "make and model" of rifle the bullet was fired from?

Thanks for the help!
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:46 PM   #22
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Don't forget that In Nomine is an inherently cinematic game - yes, you can run realistic games with the rules, but that isn't what they're designed to do. If you want to go with Hollywood Logic and say a corporate CEO works the same shift as a mailroom new-hire, more power to you.
One of the first things I do when someone creates a character is give them an "In Character" interview. I ask them a series of questions that helps the players get into the right headspace, fleshes out the PC's so that they're more than just point builds on paper, and (as an added bonus) gives me potential plot-hooks.

The typical interview goes like this:

"What's your name?
What do you do for a living?
How do you feel about your job?
Are you involved in a relationship? If so, describe your lover. If not, tell me about one of your ex-lovers?
Who are some of your favorite co-workers?
Who is your best friend?"

When asked "What do you do for a living?" The player answered "Oh, I play golf!"

XP

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(I've got a Mercurian of Trade with high Status in my campaign - "Alexander Champion" is CEO of Champion Enterprises. No it isn't realistic that the company "owner" would be the company CEO; it's more likely he'd be Chairman of the Board. But it works in the game.)

(And what is it with company bigwigs named Alexander, or "Lex" for short, anyway? Does your game get as many "Lex Luthor" jokes as mine does?)
No, although it's funny that you mention that! We're a gaming group of hardcore comic book nerds, so it's interesting that nobody has yet made the connection. Certainly, the character is about as charismatic (and ruthless) as Lex Luthor! I think his nickname, Xander, has helped to stem some of those potential comments.
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Gaming and the Corporate World

From just the bullet, provided it didn't fragment, they can determine the gun to a couple models, just from caliber and rifling.

However, to identify the specific weapon, they need to have a sample bullet to compare the grooves and lans (IIRC). For that, they need the weapon or KNOW that THIS bullet came from THAT gun (Generally from direct observation. And in a 'spray and pray' gunfight, that is not possible except to establish that THAT gun was here, not necessarily whose it was)
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:46 PM   #24
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Being military gives you nothing except as a familiarity with guns. And having spent some time with those...loving people, yeah, a license won't be automatic. (We had a guy known whom we would not trust with a weapon if our lives depended on it)

That said, Cali laws are hard. But COO would be a dealer. A very special exemption. Dealers are all fingerprinted and photographed. So would he.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:55 PM   #25
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That said, Cali laws are hard. But COO would be a dealer. A very special exemption. Dealers are all fingerprinted and photographed. So would he.
Ah, but here's the key question! Would the COO be able to purchase law-enforcement or military grade weapons directly from his corporation on account of having a dealer's license? Would he be restricted to civilian weaponry, or would he be able to purchase them at all?

Keep in mind, though the weapons would technically be for personal use, it seems to me that if you have a dealer's license and the weapons are properly registered, the law should have no way of knowing whether or not you were planning to sell them to someone with a class 3 license. Am I correct?

Now, if a criminal is arrested or a corpse is found with a military-grade weapon that was registered to you, and said person doesn't have a class 3 license, that puts you in deep doo-doo -- am I right?
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Old 04-14-2010, 12:18 AM   #26
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Alright!
He is, no doubt, a board member in Germany (and this would entail constant travel to Deutscheland). So, we stipulate that HK decided it needed a local distributer in LA. In keeping with it's wonder moral stance in Bosnia and Nepal, they decided that direct supplies to the LAPD, the Crypts and the Bloods needed a whole new center for themselves. (Hee hee)

Let's get rid of some myths. He will be working around 16+ hours a day. He will constantly need to travel and have meetings. He will have connections to local law enforcement, the military and politicians. So there are plot hooks for days there.
Seriously useful thread! Thanks to all who are contributing.

Incidentally it's "Crips", as in "cripple". I'm not sure that term's 100% current either though.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:41 AM   #27
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Ah, but here's the key question! Would the COO be able to purchase law-enforcement or military grade weapons directly from his corporation on account of having a dealer's license? Would he be restricted to civilian weaponry, or would he be able to purchase them at all?

Keep in mind, though the weapons would technically be for personal use, it seems to me that if you have a dealer's license and the weapons are properly registered, the law should have no way of knowing whether or not you were planning to sell them to someone with a class 3 license. Am I correct?

Now, if a criminal is arrested or a corpse is found with a military-grade weapon that was registered to you, and said person doesn't have a class 3 license, that puts you in deep doo-doo -- am I right?
A class iii firearm license allows you to own and operate automatic weapons, but only if they are created before May (?) 1986. So no one outside the military or LE would be allowed to have anything in the current HK inventory. As a dealer, and with a wink and a nod from LE who buys the stuff, yeah, he would have, IMO, a gray tacit allowance to have anything. All he really needs to do is order a gun demonstration and he can shoot these things all he wants after all. No one asks a store owner if he samples the pastarmi. No one would really ask much if a guy at his level takes a few samples home. Maybe one each.

But a crate of guns isn't a sample. And having bodies suddenly show up with HK military bullets in them would raise questions. At this point, there will not be a direct je accuse' moment, but inventory rolls will be gone through and he will join a (reasonably) short list...but he'd be at the bottom. First they would go through all the local armories, checking things...unless this weapon is NOT in any of the local inventories (If someone is shot with an MP5 submachinegun in LA, but neither the local military or LE has it, then the list becomes MUCH shorter). There are stories to tell, and ways around things, but that is the problem of the player, not the GM.

Let me say that a Celestial at that level of society would be treated with incredible delicacy. If I were Michael (And this is me), I wouldn't let him even OWN a Fiery Sword and he would be forbidden to shoot anything! But then, I wouldn't have put a Malakim there either.) "Your job is to make sure the OTHERS can shoot, not go shoot yourself. Now get to work!"

Because if that guy ever gets caught by LE or detected by Celestials, every single file of HK's inventory will be combed through to find out how much other chicanery had been done. Michael is smart enough to have lots of cut outs...but he delegates. SOME angels or sympathizers etc would be found.

But this is a realistic assessment, not a cinematic assessment.

Edit to add: Direct answer. In my nonprofessional opinion, yes he would have access to everything. But it would be very hard to 'sneak' them without raising flags. He would easily be allowed to have one of everything "Haw haw. Yes. I keep them as conversation pieces on my wall. The women love them. And it's good promotional material when we have dinner parties..." But in that case, they will be documented.

A few points to consider:

Are these locations factories or distribution points? If everything is manufactured in Germany, that makes stealing this stuff harder.

What other help does he have? As COO, he could manipulate quite a bit, but his job would be much easier if he had some people downstairs helping him.

Plot Hook: Baal would love to have a person in such an institution too...just saying. If not now, later. And a Belseraph of War could have a LOT of fun.

Last edited by JCD; 04-14-2010 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 04-14-2010, 07:46 AM   #28
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Ah, but here's the key question! Would the COO be able to purchase law-enforcement or military grade weapons directly from his corporation on account of having a dealer's license? Would he be restricted to civilian weaponry, or would he be able to purchase them at all?

Keep in mind, though the weapons would technically be for personal use, it seems to me that if you have a dealer's license and the weapons are properly registered, the law should have no way of knowing whether or not you were planning to sell them to someone with a class 3 license. Am I correct?

Now, if a criminal is arrested or a corpse is found with a military-grade weapon that was registered to you, and said person doesn't have a class 3 license, that puts you in deep doo-doo -- am I right?
Sorry about earlier. I was laughing at the thought of someone being licensed just because they were in the military. We aren't 'licensed' per say. It's our uniforms and the rate/job we do that allows us to carry guns. Once we are discharged, they don't give us licenses as a farewell gift. I wish they did.

On your question, if he has a dealer's license, he will be expected to keep careful records of everything. If they ask him who they sold it to, he has to be able to show that and have proof of ID (usually a photocopy of the DL). He has to have proof that the person DID show proof of a license. And actually, IIRC, he would be the one to provide the paperwork for people to apply for a license, but he sure as hell wouldn't be able to get them any paperwork for a Class 3. No way. Like I said, that is strictly government work, not even law enforcement has a Class 3, as far as I know. I remember when my father had to fill out the paperwork for it (He was INS) they did a full background check, interview, pychological eval, training, qualifications, everything. He had to provide them with a list of names and addresses of everyone he knows who lives outside the country and, since he was from the Philippines, that was a pretty long list.

If they find someone with a gun that was connected to him and this guy did not have a Class 3, he would get his license yanked and his guns taken as they investigate him. They would make you account for every gun you sold and they would investigate whether those people were qualified to have those fire arms. They would seriously question why you sold that gun to this guy and why you didn't check. There would have been no way this guy would have had anything to fake a Class 3 if your guy did the right checks. And imagine how that would go over at work...

EDIT: I forgot something...

Hell yeah gun laws are tough here. Remember, this is Los Angeles. Every major gang has a foot hold (or beginnings) here. The Crips, The Bloods, The Waching, Latin Kings, you name 'em they're here. Every gang, every ethnic group, and every single on of them are CRAZY! You really think they won't try to limit what these guys can have?

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Old 04-14-2010, 08:23 AM   #29
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Her point on the mlitary is well made. The government controls the access of soldiers to their weapons in civilian areas. They get the guns when they are practicing or training. That's it. Free access seems to be limited to places where the guys are allowed to shoot. (See Afganistan, Iraq)
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:41 AM   #30
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A class iii firearm license allows you to own and operate automatic weapons, but only if they are created before May (?) 1986. So no one outside the military or LE would be allowed to have anything in the current HK inventory.
Thanks for clarifying that. You aren't the first person to mention 1986.

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As a dealer, and with a wink and a nod from LE who buys the stuff, yeah, he would have, IMO, a gray tacit allowance to have anything. All he really needs to do is order a gun demonstration and he can shoot these things all he wants after all. No one asks a store owner if he samples the pastrami. No one would really ask much if a guy at his level takes a few samples home. Maybe one each.
I spoke about this point at length with my Corporal (I work in a county jail), and he brought up an interesting point as well. He said that it may be possible that, as a COO of H&K, he might have access to a manufacturer's license, but that the only way he would be able to possess a dealer's license is if he had operated a business on the side. This was interesting, but I rather like the "dealers license" as a cinematic excuse to have a few guns -- but I'll keep note of your answer here and use it to defend my point. A few could be obtained legally, but more and we begin to cross over into legally questionable territory.

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But a crate of guns isn't a sample. And having bodies suddenly show up with HK military bullets in them would raise questions.
I whole heartedly agree, but so far I've deliberately avoided the question of "How many guns do I have?" and have informed him that Michael sometimes demands that he outfit other Malakim. So far, it is assumed that this outfit has all come from his personal aresenal -- however big or small that may be. If there are ways to launder or sanitize these distributions (and I'm sure there are), this character would be ontop of it.

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At this point, there will not be a direct je accuse' moment, but inventory rolls will be gone through and he will join a (reasonably) short list...but he'd be at the bottom. First they would go through all the local armories, checking things...unless this weapon is NOT in any of the local inventories (If someone is shot with an MP5 submachine gun in LA, but neither the local military or LE has it, then the list becomes MUCH shorter). There are stories to tell, and ways around things, but that is the problem of the player, not the GM.
This will definitely come up at some point during the story.


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Let me say that a Celestial at that level of society would be treated with incredible delicacy. If I were Michael (And this is me), I wouldn't let him even OWN a Fiery Sword and he would be forbidden to shoot anything! But then, I wouldn't have put a Malakim there either.) "Your job is to make sure the OTHERS can shoot, not go shoot yourself. Now get to work!"
While I completely understand where you're coming from, I think I'm rather fond of the vigilante Malakite who's also a corporate president. Yes, it's overdone, but it's very Holywood. The way we've played his relationship, however, his position and status are treated as delicately as Hollywood allows. Given the nature and frequency of Michael's visits, it's very nearly safe to say that the character is micromanaged.

I don't come down quite so hard on disturbance as I should, mostly because of how difficult it is to calculate. As a general rule, unless we're talking about low and consistent disturbances or very loud bursts, I tend to lean back on my players (especially because they're new to the genre). As the game persists, and my knowledge of LA and the disturbance calculation method grow (right now the toughest part is figuring out how many people are in hearing range and what their perception rolls would be -- I've never done it before because it isn't worth the hassle), so too will the degree of severity caused by disturbances.

So far, the fiery sword has become the characters staple weapon when dealing with demons. Guns are nice, but we're still talking In Nomine -- a 50 caliber, 150 grain round from a high powered sniper rifle with a scope at just enough range for the bullet to hit terminal velocity should pretty much destroy anything it hits, but alas, it hardly puts a dent in most of the antagonists (unable to rationalize this, I allowed him to vessel-kill an unsuspecting Balseraph with a single hit, but we discussed at the end of the session that he should not expect that by any means, and we will need to come up with a system for damage that makes characters tough, but not indestructible -- or else increases weapon damage.

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Because if that guy ever gets caught by LE or detected by Celestials, every single file of HK's inventory will be combed through to find out how much other chicanery had been done. Michael is smart enough to have lots of cut outs...but he delegates. SOME angels or sympathizers etc would be found.
The biggest problem I'm having is finding out how this delegation is conducted and how these hand-outs are done, but I believe I'm getting a firmer grasp.

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But this is a realistic assessment, not a cinematic assessment.
Amen!

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Edit to add: Direct answer. In my nonprofessional opinion, yes he would have access to everything. But it would be very hard to 'sneak' them without raising flags. He would easily be allowed to have one of everything "Haw haw. Yes. I keep them as conversation pieces on my wall. The women love them. And it's good promotional material when we have dinner parties..." But in that case, they will be documented.
I have no problem keeping him on a government list, even when it grants him benefits (read: grants me plot-hooks). He paid for his role and status fair and square. He'll get both the penalties and bonuses associated with them.

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A few points to consider:

Are these locations factories or distribution points? If everything is manufactured in Germany, that makes stealing this stuff harder.
From my [limited] understanding, most of the actual weapon manufacturing is done in Germany, although I have an article regarding a new Heckler and Koch "gun plant" in Georgia, which is (along with Virginia), one of their U.S. Headquarters. I could easily run a story with Marc (and/or a crew of faithful commercial industry servitors) in the backdrop, helping the gun plant come into creation.

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What other help does he have? As COO, he could manipulate quite a bit, but his job would be much easier if he had some people downstairs helping him.
This is one of the reasons I initially posted my inquiry. Now that I have a rudimentary idea of how the archetypal corporation operates along the upper-echelon, I think the next step is determining their subsidiaries, major competitors, and corporate divisions -- otherwise, I'll just make them up. "Jake is in R&D improving the carbine format for a high-powered assault rifle that will be demonstrated in Germany," "Pamela is an accountant willing to help cover up financial holes," "Jaques is a security guard who will soon be vessel-killed in the line of fire when David and his servitors show up in the form of some local gangs to hijack the shipment..." etc.

So far, the only "helper" is an Elohite of Judgment with whom he rarely fornicates and occasionally trades secrets.

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Plot Hook: Baal would love to have a person in such an institution too...just saying. If not now, later. And a Belseraph of War could have a LOT of fun.
The question is, where to place him?

Thanks again for all your help!
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