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Old 11-13-2010, 11:30 AM   #11
Flyndaran
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Think nazi. Horribly "inhuman" toward their "enemies" but paradoxically caring toward their friends and family.
Make an orc refuse to kill a child, and care for him and maybe try to leave him with a nearby monastery.

I always wanted to have orcs be just an ethnic human but with really bad PR.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Consider this post from Kromm. It could be that orcs are just prone to the traits on the Evil and Chaotic lists, but there might be the occasional orc who is more or less a decent fellow, if you can get him away from all the other orcs.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Orcs are the way they are because of centuries of the real racial extremists, elves and dwarves, trying to exterminate the, But, elves are pretty and orcs are ugly, so humanity has it switched as to who is the really evil race.

(I used something like this in a near-future campaign, where the orcs were oppressed by about everyone and a terrorist splinter of the elves was actively trying to exterminate them)
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats View Post
I've always liked the idea of giving characters in stories, including those told through roleplay, realistic characteristics and motives, though this becomes a rather interesting proportion when it comes to Orcs. Orcs are brutal and ruthless, they just wouldn't be Orcs if they weren't, but how do you explain their brutality in a realistic fantasy (I'm well aware of the paradox) setting?
I think you have to start with a more specific description of their brutality -- IOW, what specific "brutal" features do you want to typify orcs -- and then explain those features.

Say, for instance, that orcs are typified by:
1. Aggressive tendencies, particularly notable in raids on human settlements,
2. Seeking human females as preferred mating partners,
3. Being big, strong, not particularly smart, and short-lived.

What you could do is say that orcs are, in effect, humans that are (in biological terms, though this might not be apparent in these terms in-setting) afflicted with a genetic condition which:
1. Is carried as a recessive gene on the X chromosome,
2. When expressed in a female, results in death in utero,
3. When expressed in a male, results in the physical and intellectual traits characteristics of orcs (increased size and strength, decreased lifespan, tendency toward reduced intelligence and possibly some particular psychological traits like Bad Temper, Berserk, Impulsiveness, and distinctive -- and by common social standards, unattractive -- appearance.)

In human society, orcs that appear are dumb, ugly, strong, and hard to control, and tend therefore to be the subject of anything from legal restrictions on careers and roles to outright slavery to infanticide. Naturally, those orcs that do so survive and manage to escape to live in their own groups -- and their descendants -- are, on top of their own generally aggressive natures, none too fond of the societies from which they have escaped. And, on top of that, they literally can't reproduce without a supply of women from the outside.
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:54 PM   #15
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats View Post
I've always liked the idea of giving characters in stories, including those told through roleplay, realistic characteristics and motives, though this becomes a rather interesting proportion when it comes to Orcs. Orcs are brutal and ruthless, they just wouldn't be Orcs if they weren't, but how do you explain their brutality in a realistic fantasy (I'm well aware of the paradox) setting? Also how do you give them redeeming features? Assuming you wants Orcs to be a playable race (and I am) they're going to need them. I guess the question is: what is the consistent feature in the party's interaction with Orc warriors, Orc merchants, Orc travellers, etc.
Warcraftian way: set moral priorities to
Justice == Honour/In-Group Loyalty > Purity/Self-Perfection > Modesty == Care/Forgiveness/Harm-Prevention.

OR

Make them similar to Turians, removing the distinction between military and civillian.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:03 PM   #16
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

I always think of Orcs to humans, as the romans regarded the Gauls.

To the Romans the Gauls were savage barbarians who were absolutely ferocious in combat and to be respected. But they also considered them backwards and lacking in strategic ability in battle. Gauls tended to be brutal in some things even by ancient world standards (like head hunting and similar things) but really were no more brutal to their enemies than the Romans. Its just the Romans wrote history, the Gauls didnt.

So the same as a single gaul could become a soldier fighting for the Romans, and accept Roman principles and loyalties over the Gauls (though it was usually a case of a whole Gaul tribe going over the the Romans for military and financial gain) I would say an orc could do the same. It may not be so much he has Morals, it could be more, he see more gain in getting along from time to time over just busting heads non stop.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

The Assyrians were infamous for their brutality in waging war (and this in a time that was no stranger to brutality). I'd look into their methods and consider them the Orcish average, with the more brutal of them being truly beyond the pale.
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Old 11-13-2010, 01:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

My interpretation: Orcs are fringe-dwellers.

Humans have through industry and magic occupied the breadbaskets of the world. Dwarves toil endlessly under every mineral-rich mountain. Elves tend their verdant forest-gardens like they have since time immemorial. So where do Orcs live?

The raggedy edge. The primary trait of the Orc is hardiness. They can walk through the ice-caps barefoot in search of woolly squid. They scratch a living in mines abandoned for millennia. They can take a feces-smeared stake through the foot while crashing through a malarial jungle and laugh about it the next day. Without great artifice or magic or the resources for such, they survive and thrive and multiply in places the weaklings call uninhabitable.

No desert is too hot, no tundra too cold, no volcano too active. They are survivors even more than cockroaches, and they know it. They take great pride in their strength and their raw cunning, and they know furthermore that they protect the world from worse things. Orcs aren't the only creatures that lurk in the old mines and the deep ice. Orcs have for ages uncounted battled a true darkness that few outsiders were ever aware of, and in gazing into the abyss have been changed in their turn. Some go mad, whole clans sometimes, but more vert-soldats crowd into the breach each time and keep the Keepers at bay. The maddenate tribes focus their new-found rage on the wussier races, periodically wiping out a human city or Dwarf-hall or treekingdom before self-immolating over internecine feuds made large.

Thus, for the actions of a relative few, all orcs suffer in relations with the wealthier races.
They are prideful, arrogant even, and surely they are harsh and none too bright. But unless the Rage takes them they are also just and honest and brave. An unbroken Orc is the most implacable foe or most reliable friend one can ever meet.
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Old 11-13-2010, 02:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

The Ork in my campaign aren't technically a "real" race. Unbeknown to everyone else in the campaign, they are a former culture of humans under a form of a curse (it's actually their own cultural magic that caused it, but let's just call it a curse to keep it simple.)

The results of this curse is that it transformed their bodies and has given them various mental disadvantages so that they:

A) don't realize that they are transformed
B) have a great deal of difficulty controlling themselves, and therefore act brutally.

Adding into this; the culture that they were had the highest level of magic and technology in the area, so they have better weapons and armor (TL3 vs low/mid TL2), which makes them pretty formidable.

That's a quest/story line that no one in the game is anywhere near finding out about yet, so far they've just met Ork a couple of times and are now reassessing their opinions of the previous "villain" culture.

Of course, they haven't met the Ogrekin yet. :)

They operate tribally only, and they survive only by raiding and taking, which makes it pretty easy for everyone else to hate them.
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Old 11-13-2010, 03:12 PM   #20
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Default Re: The morality of Orcs

Here's how I figure orcs:

Step 1) Proclivity and reproduction cycle. Orcs(in my opinion) should mature faster than humans. A 15 year old orc should be physically on par with a 20ish human, though their mental development will be lessened. Orc women also bear litters of children, babies who rapidly mature, but require a very protein rich diet. Only two mammaries mean that Orc children, from the outset, are in competition with each other for access to mommies attentions and her Milk.

I see high levels of infant mortality, but with the hardiness of the species and the large litter sizes, enough Orcs make it to maturity to reproduce.

Next, I set Orc tendencies towards aggression, intimidation and violence. Orc bosses rule because they can brow-beat and kill opposition to their policies, not from a sense of loyalty or duty. Orc tribal leaders are basically brutal dictators who rule as far as their personal authority will extend. Each Orc boss will have an inner circle of companions, those he bullies into acting as his proxies. In fighting is common and endemic.

Violent, Fecund and hardy, Orcs are expansionistic, but have almost no capability to organize themselves in anything larger than a warband. Hence they are frequently defeated by their opponents and forced into less desirable living areas. This in turn causes overcrowding and tensions, with circles of violent pyschopaths as leaders, with the weaker and cowardly hanging around on the fringes. When overpopulation finally pushes them past the limit, the outliers will migrate en masse and become hordes which invade neighboring lands.

These hordes arn't particularly dangerous, but after their defeat, it's relatively easy for the survivors to disappear into tangled woods and hills, where the form brigand bands that plague farmers and travelers, and even breeding populations.
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