At what size do giants need the Dependency (Mana) advantage?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Giant insects would need much more O2 in the atmosphere but they would never get big like fantasy insects.

On the high end sure. But dog sized spiders are not entirely impossible, and as much of the argument is then based on their breathing mechanism, why can't they have lungs?

Creatures with exoskeletons will not be house sized sure, but you can have some very large fantasy bugs with out any need for changing physics.

Argentavis wouldn't be flying around like the flying creatures in fantasy IMO, they would probably be very fragile.

Sure. But people are willing to declare things impossible pretty quickly too.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

How about each level of mana above zero allowing creatures to grow a SM larger while retaining the healthiness, agility, and/or nutrient requirements of their normal-sized (non-mana-enhanced) counterparts? Would that work as a good rule of thumb for generic fantasy games?

How about just saying variant physics/biology with out the need for mana or magic?

[StevenH]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

On the high end sure. But dog sized spiders are not entirely impossible, and as much of the argument is then based on their breathing mechanism, why can't they have lungs?

Creatures with exoskeletons will not be house sized sure, but you can have some very large fantasy bugs with out any need for changing physics.

I don't think I would go with lungs. I would go with "lung analogues". :-)

But I agree, in general. Up until recently, I have tended to try to design critters without having to "cheat" by using mana as an excuse. Usually, it isn't necessary.

But then, if mana is available, then life will find a way to use it, just like sunlight, hydrogen sulfide, or any of a number of energy sources. Which is the pathway I am playing around with at the moment.

As for giants, as others have mentioned, it is possible to design them without mana, but they won't look anything like big humans. You might be able to keep them bipedal, but their proportions and internals will be very different. They might even have multiple hearts, or nerve clusters/sub-brains to help control their extremities. They might even be horizontal (like a t-rex) to keep their hearts from having to work so hard pumping blood uphill. (But then, they would probably have tails, or a gluteus really-maximus for a counterbalance). If you go this route, they will end up very alien indeed.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by b-dog

Exactly, a fantasy giant shape like those depicted in fantasy drawings would not be functiuonal in a ni mana world. The physics wouldn't support it, just as a giant insect can't exist in a no mana zone*.

*(No mana zone, no sanctity zone or with no super powers)

Or world without the peculiar disregard for natural law seen in Hollywood monster movies and Japanese daikaiju films. That isn't "explained" by mana, sanctity, super powers, or anything like that; the filmmaker just doesn't ask about the structural mechanics. In a cinematic campaign I figure that's legal.

Bill Stoddard

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Or world without the peculiar disregard for natural law seen in Hollywood monster movies and Japanese daikaiju films. That isn't "explained" by mana, sanctity, super powers, or anything like that; the filmmaker just doesn't ask about the structural mechanics. In a cinematic campaign I figure that's legal.

Bill Stoddard

Yes, if the rules of reality have changed then there would be no need for a supernatural power source because things will behave naturally according to the rules of the new reality.

[Carnivorous Bean]

I agree that giants would look noticeably different from regular-sized humans, but I'd just like to comment that the problems experienced by abnormally tall people aren't necessarily a nix on large bipedal humanoids. The key here is that these people are abnormal -- their dimensions are outside the limits that their species has adapted for, so that's why they're running into problems.

Thicker bones, odd hip structures, and different placement of muscles and ligaments would make a larger biped fairly feasible, I'd think. Again, I agree that there limits to the size, but simply dismissing the possibility because of problems experienced by abnormal individuals in a different species seems to me to be a bit illogical.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by StevenH

As for giants, as others have mentioned, it is possible to design them without mana, but they won't look anything like big humans. You might be able to keep them bipedal, but their proportions and internals will be very different. They might even have multiple hearts, or nerve clusters/sub-brains to help control their extremities. They might even be horizontal (like a t-rex) to keep their hearts from having to work so hard pumping blood uphill. (But then, they would probably have tails, or a gluteus really-maximus for a counterbalance). If you go this route, they will end up very alien indeed.

Depends just how big they are. Up to SM+2 or so, I imagine that a modicum of adaptation to make sure bones are thick enough and hearts are big enough to pump blood up about twice the distance in normal-sized humans should suffice, without any of the more radical modifications, resulting in 12 or even 15 ft giants that looked much like scaled up humans, only squatter and more pyramidal (legs larger in proportion to torso, etc.) in proportion - rather like how those sorts of giants are often (although not always) portrayed in fantasy art, in fact. Above that scale, I'd agree that either radical alterations or different physical laws (including magical ones) are required.

[mjj1976]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

How about just saying variant physics/biology with out the need for mana or magic?

Doesn't that treatment undermine the issue posed by the original poster's question? He seemed to be asking about where the point would be that magic would have to take over from the realism of physics/biology. It seems unlikely that we'd get a giant humanoid with both human-like performance and similar looks, no matter what alternate biology we give it. And if we go as far as altering the laws of physics, then we might as well call it magic.

Trying to stay within those parameters, I proposed a rule of thumb for using the mana level to justify a calculable transition from biology to magic. If GURPS can quantify magic into mana zones, then I see no reason why we can't come up with workable guidelines for determining what levels of magic are necessary to sustain progressively-larger giants.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by mjj1976

Doesn't that treatment undermine the issue posed by the original poster's question?

Variant biology I don't think does. There are plenty of things that could exist but never have. Letting creatures with exoskeletons have more efficient respiratory and circulatory systems would permit much larger bugs, and yet be perfectly plausible . See the size bugs got up to when the earth had more oxygen in the atmosphere.

He seemed to be asking about where the point would be that magic would have to take over from the realism of physics/biology. It seems unlikely that we'd get a giant humanoid with both human-like performance and similar looks, no matter what alternate biology we give it. And if we go as far as altering the laws of physics, then we might as well call it magic.

But most of the answers never assumed any variation in biology at all. There are animals that have been very large bipeds and ones that have heads much higher than their hearts with out killing them.

So a 15' tall roughly humaniod is not any physical impossibility.

There certainly comes a point where such a creature would not be better adapted than a somewhat smaller but similar creature and so would not evolve past a certain size. But that size could be damn big.

[mjj1976]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

But most of the answers never assumed any variation in biology at all. There are animals that have been very large bipeds and ones that have heads much higher than their hearts with out killing them.

So a 15' tall roughly humaniod is not any physical impossibility.

Probably so, but that's still a realism-based biological explanation. The question is whether such giants would look and function like the fantasy giants so many people expect. If you want giants to function well, then they won't have the same proportions as humans; and if you want them to look like humans, then they won't function well. I think that the biology method can only overcome one of those problems at a time. That's where magic can be used to prop it up, so we can have both performance and appearance.

But neither does that rule out your argument on biology. The largest giants could indeed benefit from both methods: inhman proportions for better performance, plus the ability to metabolize mana for tougher bodies, stronger muscles, and/or lower sustenance requirements. But again: what guidelines should we go by? (Are there obections to the method I suggested?)