Experience Points

[tbeard1999]

A couple of questions that I don’t *think* have been asked/answered, along with my opinion as to what the answer should be:

1. When a character adds a point of IQ by spending XP, does he also get a talent point? I don’t know how I fall on this.

2. Are you sure that you want the number of talent points a character can have to be unlimited? I suggest that the answer be “yes; 2 x IQ” or somesuch. My reasoning is that at 100 xp per talent point, talents are FAR cheaper than attributes after attribute level 9. Thus, figures will be able to - and likely will - buy lots of talent points, compared with attributes. For example, for the cost of raising an attribute from 13 to 14, a character can instead take seven talent points. Omitting peculiar weapons, the entire IQ7-8 talent list consumes only 22 talent points. That’s slightly more than the cost of raising 3 attributes from 12 to 13.

3. No question really, just a comment. I’m uneasy about talents costing only 100 xp per point. That seems awfully cheap to me, compared with the cost of raising attributes.

[Skarg]

Yeah, the relative cost of learning things at a flat 100 EP per point, with no limit on the total, would seem to make learning lots of things very attractive, and I think a weird/silly/gamey and/or imbalanced point may be an issue, though I'm not sure exactly where that will come up, as I don't have enough experience with it.

It occurs to me that there should also be a time component that could help reduce the abuse of learning. There are already rules in Advanced Wizard for how much time is needed for wizards to learn new spells, and the answer depends on relative IQ levels and the method used, but ranges from 2 x spell IQ level in weeks (for book learning a spell at your own IQ level) to 1 x spell IQ level in weeks (for instructed learning of a spell at the learner's IQ level) with a discount in weeks equal to how much more IQ you have than the spell requires. That's a lot of game time, and if there were similar rates for learning talents (especially if multiplied by the talent points), it would take a lot of time to learn stuff (though it could nicely be simultaneous with adventuring time if you were actively using it and able to practice it while traveling). So yeah it might only take 700 EP to learn 7 points of talents, but that could be a year of two of study time, or more if you don't really have the opportunity to study those things due to being busy adventuring and doing other things where there is no teacher for them, etc.

But some people might balk at the idea of tracking that at all and ignore such rules, at which point it might need some other system.

[zot]

Originally Posted by tbeard1999

A couple of questions that I don’t *think* have been asked/answered, along with my opinion as to what the answer should be:

1. When a character adds a point of IQ by spending XP, does he also get a talent point? I don’t know how I fall on this.

2. Are you sure that you want the number of talent points a character can have to be unlimited? I suggest that the answer be “yes; 2 x IQ” or somesuch. My reasoning is that at 100 xp per talent point, talents are FAR cheaper than attributes after attribute level 9. Thus, figures will be able to - and likely will - buy lots of talent points, compared with attributes. For example, for the cost of raising an attribute from 13 to 14, a character can instead take seven talent points. Omitting peculiar weapons, the entire IQ7-8 talent list consumes only 22 talent points. That’s slightly more than the cost of raising 3 attributes from 12 to 13.

I'm seriously hoping Steve will run with my suggestion to break the hard link between talents and IQ. I think talents should only depend on one attribute, so Fencing would become a DX talent and Warrior would become a ST talent, neither of which would have an IQ requirement at all (or potentially a very low IQ requirement if there simply must be an IQ requirement).

I'm not super concerned about IQ being a dump stat for heroes because that would render them very susceptible to being duped in dangerous ways (illusions are way cheaper than summons). Each attribute has value and you do get what you pay for...

[zot]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I ran through the numbers for some examples, listed below. I list the EP for just the attributes, followed by estimates including EP for getting Staff up to IQ, and an approximation of what talents/spells I think a PC rising through those stats might likely want from the existing lists. Of course the way PCs get EP is now up to the GM, so how long it takes depends on how much EP the GM gives out. Nevertheless I also ran a comparison with some long-term-surviving actual old PCs in our campaigns.

A wizard going from IQ 16 to IQ 24 would need 26,000 EP (28,400 EP with Staff 24, 31,000 EP with +26 spells).

A dwarf going from DX 6 to DX 14 would need 2,900 EP.

A human going from ST 8 to ST 16 would need 4,700 EP.

A wizard going from 10/11/11 to 11/13/16 would need 5,300 EP (6,900 EP with Staff 16, 9,100 EP with +22 spells).

A warrior going from 12/12/8 to 16/14/9 would need 4,800 EP (6,000 EP with +12 in talents).

A hero going from 11/12/9 to 13/14/13 would need 4,200 EP (6.400 with +22 in talents).

A hero going from 11/12/9 to 12/18/10 would need 7,600 EP (9,800 EP with +22 in talents).

A wizard going from 8/12/12 to 8/12/20 would need 12,300 EP (14,300 EP with Staff 20, 17,300 EP with +30 spells).

An actual TFT character I played from 32 to 42 points, took 3,500 EP in the old rules. In the new rules, would take 6,200 EP for the attributes, 6,600 EP for the talents.

An actual TFT character a friend played in my campaign from 32 to 46 points, took 9,500 EP in the old rules. In the new rules, would take 11,800 EP for the attributes, 12,700 EP for the talents, actually 13,000+ including talents learned & erased by the Wizard's guild to make room for more....

Wizards with IQ 16 and up would most likely raise their staff's mana to double their IQ, since Steve's current staff rules allow that.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by zot

Wizards with IQ 16 and up would most likely raise their staff's mana to double their IQ, since Steve's current staff rules allow that.

Yes, if that's what Steve meant. I'm not clear if he means Staff of Power has double capacity, or if it just means a Wizard can raise their Staff ability to twice as much, but have to pay the EP to do so. I assumed the former because of how it was worded, but I think the Staff ability is powerful so I'd favor having to pay for the double levels Staff of Power allows (and/or having the cost go up the greater you take it - as it is, I think it's a very good buy for 100 EP each point regardless of level).

[luguvalium]

Consider scaling the point cost of talents as the total number of talents increase. Maybe 1-10 points of talents are 100XP each, 11-15 points of talents are 200XP each, etc

[JLV]

That's a good idea, right there. Also, we need a LOT more talents! ;-)

[Steve Jackson]

I am open to suggestions for new talents, but not very :) because I don't want to subdivide the existing ones without very good game reasons.

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Steve Jackson

I am open to suggestions for new talents, but not very :) because I don't want to subdivide the existing ones without very good game reasons.

A sentiment I agree with. I can think of only two (minor) IQ 8 talents that I’d really like to see:

First Aid (1), like physicker, but heals one hit with physicker’s kit. Can later buy physicker for 1 point. Alternatively, or additionally, perhaps reduce IQ prerequisite for physicker talent.

Quickdraw (1), allows figure to drop unused ready weapon/torch, etc. (if any) and instantly ready a new weapon. Must be taken separately for swords (including knife), ax/mace, pistol (in Wild West campaign). Other weapons are possible, I suppose.

[You could require a 3/DX roll if desired, but it seems to be a fiddly flourish.].

[Addition for Wild West and later campaigns] - If two figures Quickdraw and it’s important to know who drew first, make a 3/DX roll. Whoever makes the roll by the most (or misses it by the least if both miss) wins.

This suggests a simple general rule to resolve opposed contests.

Both figures make a 3 die roll against the applicable attribute. Appropriate talents may reduce the dice. If both succeed, the one that makes the roll by the most wins. If both fail, the one who fails by the least wins. If one wins and the other loses, the winner will win the contest.

[KevinJ]

All it takes is a Disolve Enchantment to make your magic armor or weapon not so magic.

If you have wizards making the good stuff there should certainly be plenty of not so good wizards ready to make your spiffy gear less spiffy.